They should get rid of Dodge Rolling and I-frames.

[Tentacule Un Seigneur]

For their next game at least.

They would have to find different ways to balance combat if nothing you did made you invincible (Would also make a bit more sense, I can't help but find it absurd dodge rolling through dragon fire protects you from it).

I mean, if a person wearing full plate armor tried to roll in it......I wonder how many of their limbs would still remain unbroken by the time they finished.

But yes, I think the whole "Dodge rolling makes you invincible" should be replaced with more realistic dodging or guarding. Like if you are a light character, you could leap to either side or backwards to dodge (actually physically dodge) attacks.

[Gamesare2fun]

Originally posted by Tentacule Un Seigneur:

Originally posted by Naewyng:

https://youtu.be/qzTwBQniLSc

That just shows them rolling once (And only a bit faster than a fat roll), the question he asked was about rolling repeatedly over a extended period, which seems much more unlikely. Remember, you have to show evidence that it is possible to Roll "spam" (As in do it again and again for a fair duration of time).

The bigger issue is rolling just doesnt work. A sword or polearm is a lever, a small movement at the base by your hand is a very large movement at the end, this makes them extremely fast. Faster than rolling your entire body.

A dodge in a swordfight is a step backwards, but generally you're defending. In that regard, sekiro was pretty good, i really enjoyed the feeling of clashing blades back and forth, i just wish you didnt always just need to spam parry until a posture break - dynamically finding openings is something that felt underutilized.

[Gamesare2fun]

Originally posted by Naewyng:

If they ditch iframe rolling and replace them with proper dodging that doesn't make you invincible, they necessarily have to make enemies and bosses much less over the top.

No more insane AoEs, no more swings that cover a football field, no more super huge dudes with swords, etc.

Which honestly doesn't sound too bad. At this point I'd say this formula has been done to death. Time for something new and fresh :)

agreed. Crazy aoes require dodge rolls. I could see a helldivers type dive working for those though. I've also never loved the crutch dark souls has used of making all the enemy 'humans' double your size just to give them extreme reach, to try and force you to time rolls for iframes. Again, i'd rather a timed block or at least for dodging to actually require getting out of the way.

[Gamesare2fun]

Originally posted by Darkeeper:

I sure can't wait for them to ditch a core mechanic that's been a staple of the series since Demon's Souls.

Except its not all one series, they have 'ditched' it for sekiro, and miyazaki has expressed a desire to do something different for quite a while.

[Gamesare2fun]

Originally posted by chalkywhite:

I don't get why other players want to strict the way others play a game you don't like dodge rolls don't fxxking use it. but no they need a thread to say get rid of something in the game just like summons you don't need to use them if you do not like it.

Nobody is saying to remove it from the existing games. They're just expressing opinions and things theyd like moving forwards. the only one trying to control what anyone *else* can do here, is you. Everyone else is just having a fairly enjoyable discussion.

[Gamesare2fun]

Originally posted by UnholyDentist:

Dodge rolling would not be possible in heavy armor, a full sleeve chain mail alone weights around 40 lbs, now add the full plate set with curiass, bascinet helmet, and some plate boots with leather in-lining, gauntlets, and don't forget the gambeson and clothing underneath. Then of course, weapon and shield. Some of these knights fully equipped would end up being stuck on the ground once fallen over, death from drowning was a common death for heavy armored soldiers. The weight takes away mobility almost completely but in turn provides incredible protection on medieval warfare, it was worth it.

This is only a fantasy game and Mr. Miyazaki's team simply wanted this sort of gameplay, so the solution to prevent being made a pancake each time a giant boss attacks, was dodge rolling. It has worked for over a decade and I think they keep using it as 'it just works' and people like it anyway mentality. I would like to see some innovation in that aspect too, but making a new game as extensive and complex as Elden Ring is already a great deal of achievement, not redoing the combat mechanics for their souls combat games is something we can forgive for I believe.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ we've been over this myth already. people have already put several videos proving this false in this thread.

You can absolutely roll in plate, full late period harness is 50-60lbs, spread around the entire body, you can absolutely roll, climb, get up, etc. Mobility was a priority. Loss of mobility is only a thing in tournament armor, by design, so you dont break bones getting hit for fun.

Rolling doesnt work in combat because a lever is always going to be faster than throwing your whole body, and people arent glued in place when they start swinging. They're just gonna catch you in the roll. Rolling doesnt work in a fight with weapons in or out of armor, at least not reliably. Armor is not what is stopping you from rolling.

Yes, a knight could absolutely stand up unaided. People died from drowning because after falling they were *trampled by the rest of the f*cking army fighting around them*. Or because after an hour of fighting with a weapon, you're going to be physically drained no matter what youre wearing. People are winded after a boxing match, and thats only a few minutes naked. Armor is not whats causing this, all armor does is trap heat making you tire faster in addition to the little bit of extra weight.

Drowning is common because gambeson, being fabric, pulls you down. Gambeson is not heavy armor. You *can* swim in plate if you wear it without padding.

[Gamesare2fun]

Originally posted by UnholyDentist:

Originally posted by Nauct:

A compete set of plate armor only weighs like 40 lbs, plus chainmail, and the weight is distributed over your whole frame. If you've ever worn any you know it's not a big deal, especially if you're a fully grown in shape man. You can for sure roll around like a clown no problem

When I worn a full plate with chain mail that covers every part including the coif. It was closer to 60 pounds altogether, without shield and weapon. I'd imagine there would have been a massive divergence from smith to smith in weight of the plates and chainmail, plus people in medieval era used to be substantially shorter with smaller frame, so probably what you are saying is true and the whole gear weighted around 40 lbs. I didn't try to roll in it, but sitting down on ground and getting up the plates don't like to stay in place much and the chain likes to twist around the body unless very close fit. The armor would have to be a very close fit design with intricate sleeves and pivots to ensure every piece stays and rotates without twisting and misplacement during rolls. I don't think they ever designed medieval armor for dodge rolling, but perhaps it could be done.

Armor would generally need to be tailored to the wearer, yes. if it has slack and is able to shift around its going to feel significantly heavier. a shirt of mail is also generally the most encumbering type of armor, later period plate with mail only covering the gaps is a lot easier to run around in.

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by Gamesare2fun:

Originally posted by Tentacule Un Seigneur:

That just shows them rolling once (And only a bit faster than a fat roll), the question he asked was about rolling repeatedly over a extended period, which seems much more unlikely. Remember, you have to show evidence that it is possible to Roll "spam" (As in do it again and again for a fair duration of time).

The bigger issue is rolling just doesnt work. A sword or polearm is a lever, a small movement at the base by your hand is a very large movement at the end, this makes them extremely fast. Faster than rolling your entire body.

A dodge in a swordfight is a step backwards, but generally you're defending. In that regard, sekiro was pretty good, i really enjoyed the feeling of clashing blades back and forth, i just wish you didnt always just need to spam parry until a posture break - dynamically finding openings is something that felt underutilized.

You could try Lords of the Fallen. It has deflect/parry as an option for combat, and normal dodges are a back/sidestep thing (with longer dodge rolls if you need to cover distance).

[Mike]

I have no issue with i-frames, but I do agree FromSoft focuses way too much on that aspect as its CORE defensive option and it looks especially silly when the best option is to roll through everything. In the OG souls games it was less of an issue because most bosses just swung a sword or melee so the i-frame rolling felt more natural. No in ER your expecting to roll fire, ice, magic attacks, ranged attacks,....etc and it makes it all look silly (its still fun though).

For example Nioh 2 has i-frames in many instances but the input and animations are so tight its feels and looks much more natural then it has ever been in souls games.

I just want the "roll to avoid EVERYTHING" meta to evolve in FS Souls games and this is why I personally like other souls-like better because they either have more defensive options to counter/avoid attacks or they use a dash mechanics instead of a roll mechanic that overall feels much better to pull off.

[Gamesare2fun]

Originally posted by Mike:

I have no issue with i-frames, but I do agree FromSoft focuses way too much on that aspect as its CORE defensive option and it looks especially silly when the best option is to roll through everything. In the OG souls games it was less of an issue because most bosses just swung a sword or melee so the i-frame rolling felt more natural. No in ER your expecting to roll fire, ice, magic attacks, ranged attacks,....etc and it makes it all look silly (its still fun though).

For example Nioh 2 has i-frames in many instances but the input and animations are so tight its feels and looks much more natural then it has ever been in souls games.

I just want the "roll to avoid EVERYTHING" meta to evolve in FS Souls games and this is why I personally like other souls-like better because they either have more defensive options to counter/avoid attacks or they use a dash mechanics instead of a roll mechanic that overall feels much better to pull off.

This is well said, i dont mind iframes as an option but having played every game theyve released 5+ times I just kinda am tired of it always being the same.

[Gamesare2fun]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Originally posted by Gamesare2fun:

The bigger issue is rolling just doesnt work. A sword or polearm is a lever, a small movement at the base by your hand is a very large movement at the end, this makes them extremely fast. Faster than rolling your entire body.

A dodge in a swordfight is a step backwards, but generally you're defending. In that regard, sekiro was pretty good, i really enjoyed the feeling of clashing blades back and forth, i just wish you didnt always just need to spam parry until a posture break - dynamically finding openings is something that felt underutilized.

You could try Lords of the Fallen. It has deflect/parry as an option for combat, and normal dodges are a back/sidestep thing (with longer dodge rolls if you need to cover distance).

I have picked the game up, just killed the first boss, then i bought bellwright and ive been a bit too obsessed with that game to come back to LOTF but i will eventually.

[Mike]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Originally posted by Gamesare2fun:

The bigger issue is rolling just doesnt work. A sword or polearm is a lever, a small movement at the base by your hand is a very large movement at the end, this makes them extremely fast. Faster than rolling your entire body.

A dodge in a swordfight is a step backwards, but generally you're defending. In that regard, sekiro was pretty good, i really enjoyed the feeling of clashing blades back and forth, i just wish you didnt always just need to spam parry until a posture break - dynamically finding openings is something that felt underutilized.

You could try Lords of the Fallen. It has deflect/parry as an option for combat, and normal dodges are a back/sidestep thing (with longer dodge rolls if you need to cover distance).

Yeah I actually liked the defensive options much better in LOTF, because dashes will always feel better then rolls, and the parry mechanic is universal, satisfying and skill based. Very underrated Souls-like imo

[Gamesare2fun]

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

You could try Lords of the Fallen. It has deflect/parry as an option for combat, and normal dodges are a back/sidestep thing (with longer dodge rolls if you need to cover distance).

Yeah I actually liked the defensive options much better in LOTF, because dashes will always feel better then rolls, and the parry mechanic is universal, satisfying and skill based. Very underrated Souls-like imo

for me the issue was performance. I have a pretty beefy system but I bought the game and got 15fps regardless of settings, refunded, bought it a year later, same issue, bought it a third time on a whim, suggenly i get stable 60 despite no changes to the system. Which is good, cuz ive been really wanting to give it a try. Like i said i got to the first boss and it was very fun, i like the vibe as well.

Bellwright is just too awesome tho, pardon me while I totally just make an ad for the game.

obsessed with it currently, we get so few things in like a dark age peasantcore type setting and im loving progressing from viking period to proper medieval tech. The rimworld style colony management is also a lot more fun than usual survival crafters. its not really a soulslike, but there is a stamina bar, so i guess it is. Give it a try if interested.

I also love how they handle primary weapons. you get one primary slot on your back and two sidearm slots on your belt. The sidearm slots can also hold tools like handaxes or pickaxes, but also stuff like maces, onehanded swords, ya know, history's sidearms. They'll kill someone, but they arent ideal. Then the primary slot, can hold a shield, a large tool like a shovel, a bow, or a twohanded weapon. So if you need to hike across the map into enemy territory to harvest peat for making steel, you need a shovel, meaning you're only packing a sidearm for combat, adds to tension. I ♥♥♥♥♥♥ love it. I love that weapon skill increases swing speed. I love the way theyve handled hunger. Istg man its my game of the year and nobody knows about it. There is no dodging but if enemies are rocking shorter sidearms or tools you can usually just step back to 'dodge' a hit. But, you'll be pretty incompetent in combat for the early game, usually gotta resort to using a bow or getting a ton of buddies and outnumbering the enemies. Which makes sense, youre peasants, you dont actually know how to fight. Even if theyre shirtless bandits, presumably theyve gotten some experience.

Honorable mention to Fall of Avalon, basically just skyrim 2, really enjoying it, it has stamina and a dodge thus soulslike, but the dodge is a stepdodge without iframes and feels very good. Also has timed block/parrying. I feel like it should be consuming my life right now, but im too busy with bellwright. Some day ill get around to shadow of the erdtree.

[Sabaithal]

Fall of Avalon needs to make some bloody progress on the updates. Its been in EA too long and is hardly making any progress, still looks worse than Skyrim somehow, and the combat system needs polishing, alongside various smaller problems.

Also the game shows how important sound queues are and how combat feels extremely unsatisfying when its not done correctly.

[Gamesare2fun]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Fall of Avalon needs to make some bloody progress on the updates. Its been in EA too long and is hardly making any progress, still looks worse than Skyrim somehow, and the combat system needs polishing, alongside various smaller problems.

Also the game shows how important sound queues are and how combat feels extremely unsatisfying when its not done correctly.

Grail had a major update in may and patches roughly every 2 weeks. im not upset with the progress at all, and i have no issue with how the game looks. i just wish character customization was a little better and theyd hurry up with releasing the modding tools.

[TastyPillows]

Originally posted by DragonSoundxSG:

100%. It's been a lazy crutch for too long.

The other day I cornered a player in PvP and he literally spammed light roll in the corner for about 20 seconds. Forgot I was playing ER.

And then I had to laugh when I literally rolled through Commander Gaius lol.

It's almost like the gameplay mechanics were never suited to PvP.