Lore theory

[mpcgannon]

I'm not smart so I shoot for low hanging fruit.
Messmer "the impaler" clearly references Vlad the impaler aka Vlad Dracul.
1. Some consider Vlad a Christian hero vs Ottomans. Christian = relevant
2. Dracul is a title granted as being a member of the order of the dragon. Messmer has a dragon eye. The order was also Christian.
3. When his older brother died, Vlad became eligible for the throne. Messmer says something about something related in the trailer.

So off the bat Messmer ( Vlad ) fought Newmans ( I'm guessing they = Ottomans ) in favor of the Erdtree ( Christianity ). During which he became famous for his ruthlessness.

Dude is also red with fire and snakes all over. This, through a low hanging christian fruit perspective, is Lucifer, the devil. And in the trailer someone says something about those who don't return to the Erdtree ( heaven ) are killed by Messmer's flame ( hell ).

Thoughts, support, arguments against?

[mpcgannon]

Vlad was also raised by Ottomans which helped him manipulate and defeat them. Merika being a Newman herself would be a strong enough connection for Messmer.

[echo_ML]

It definitely seems implied that Messmer sides with the golden order, or at least with his mother Marika. I think his curse was that even though he serves the erdtree, he signifies everything that goes against it (fire,snakes,dragons,etc)

In the trailer, it says something along the lines of "those stripped of the grace of gold shall all meet death by Messmer's flame"

Perhaps the land of shadow is where the golden order sends people they don't wanna deal with. Whats also interesting is the fact it says they shall meet Death, when death isn't really a thing in the lands between untill we restore the rune of death to the elden ring. So either A:death still works normal in the land of shadow, or B: Messmer might be doing something a lot worse to those people, like impaling them alive (like Vlad)

[Fineous🔥]

Well he is for sure a spawn of Radagon. They all share the fiery red hair wich is a curse bestowed upon him by the fire giants.....so chances are during the trailer he is talking directly to Marika!

Cursing someone to be a ginger......now i understand why the Golden Order and Zamor people went after the fire giants....so petty.

[Lord Bob]

Messmer also mentions being bereft of light and seems puzzled about Marika still deeming him worthy of a Lord. Which says a lot, considering his appearance (snakes and all) hinting at being completely opposed to the Erdtree and thus the Great Will and the Golden Order. It might be well within her plan to rid the Lands Between of the Greater Will's influence (I hope I still remember this right).

[echo_ML]

Originally posted by Lord Bob:

Messmer also mentions being bereft of light and seems puzzled about Marika still deeming him worthy of a Lord. Which says a lot, considering his appearance (snakes and all) hinting at being completely opposed to the Erdtree and thus the Great Will and the Golden Order. It might be well within her plan to rid the Lands Between of the Greater Will's influence (I hope I still remember this right).

That line in the trailer still confuses me so much. He says "Sanction lordship" but sanction can mean a lot of different things.
I also thought maybe he was referring to us, and why Marika "sanctions lordship" for us. (That is, if Marika was the one that gave us grace back. Otherwise that doesn't make sense.)

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Messmer is Mohg-corrupted Miquella, who is now following the same path as Marika to become a god.

See you guys back here when it turns out I'm 110% correct and nobody believed me.

[vamirez]

You may also want to look at mesmerism (a hypnotic power) and its attribution to the vampire. The Cambridge dictionary definition of mesmerism is "the act of putting someone into a mental state like sleep, in which a person's thoughts can be easily influenced by someone else".

Edit: Just reading the above - if Norm is right his name would apply to the influenced person instead of him being the influencer. Interesting.

[mpcgannon]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Messmer is Mohg-corrupted Miquella, who is now following the same path as Marika to become a god.

See you guys back here when it turns out I'm 110% correct and nobody believed me.

So Miquella
= St. Trina ( lady form )
= Messmer ( boy form )

[vamirez]

Originally posted by echo_ML:

Originally posted by Lord Bob:

Messmer also mentions being bereft of light and seems puzzled about Marika still deeming him worthy of a Lord. Which says a lot, considering his appearance (snakes and all) hinting at being completely opposed to the Erdtree and thus the Great Will and the Golden Order. It might be well within her plan to rid the Lands Between of the Greater Will's influence (I hope I still remember this right).

That line in the trailer still confuses me so much. He says "Sanction lordship" but sanction can mean a lot of different things.
I also thought maybe he was referring to us, and why Marika "sanctions lordship" for us. (That is, if Marika was the one that gave us grace back. Otherwise that doesn't make sense.)

Imo in the trailer it means "Mother, would you grant lordship to"... basicallly someone not of royal blood or someone undeserving. And he really disapproves of that, i.e. you, the player.

[mpcgannon]

Originally posted by vamirez:

Imo in the trailer it means "Mother, would you grant lordship to"... basicallly someone not of royal blood or someone undeserving. And he really disapproves of that, i.e. you, the player.

This is concurrent time wise AND takes place towards the end of the game...

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by mpcgannon:

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Messmer is Mohg-corrupted Miquella, who is now following the same path as Marika to become a god.

See you guys back here when it turns out I'm 110% correct and nobody believed me.

So Miquella
= St. Trina ( lady form )
= Messmer ( boy form )

I'd buy that for a dollar.

[Lord Bob]

Originally posted by echo_ML:

Originally posted by Lord Bob:

Messmer also mentions being bereft of light and seems puzzled about Marika still deeming him worthy of a Lord. Which says a lot, considering his appearance (snakes and all) hinting at being completely opposed to the Erdtree and thus the Great Will and the Golden Order. It might be well within her plan to rid the Lands Between of the Greater Will's influence (I hope I still remember this right).

That line in the trailer still confuses me so much. He says "Sanction lordship" but sanction can mean a lot of different things.
I also thought maybe he was referring to us, and why Marika "sanctions lordship" for us. (That is, if Marika was the one that gave us grace back. Otherwise that doesn't make sense.)

Now that you mention it, I believe I got the line completely wrong. He's actually asking Marika if she would sanction lordship in one so bereft of light (where he talks about himself I guess.)
But the way you put it makes a lot of sense as well. He might be completely confused about why Marika would grant a Tarnished the grace of gold.

edit:

Originally posted by mpcgannon:

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Messmer is Mohg-corrupted Miquella, who is now following the same path as Marika to become a god.

See you guys back here when it turns out I'm 110% correct and nobody believed me.

So Miquella
= St. Trina ( lady form )
= Messmer ( boy form )

That seems fitting.

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by Lord Bob:

Originally posted by echo_ML:

That line in the trailer still confuses me so much. He says "Sanction lordship" but sanction can mean a lot of different things.
I also thought maybe he was referring to us, and why Marika "sanctions lordship" for us. (That is, if Marika was the one that gave us grace back. Otherwise that doesn't make sense.)

Now that you mention it, I believe I got the line completely wrong. He's actually asking Marika if she would sanction lordship in one so bereft of light (where he talks about himself I guess.)
But the way you put it makes a lot of sense as well. He might be completely confused about why Marika would grant a Tarnished the grace of gold.

I don't think it's that she's granting the grace of gold. Remember that she's actively working against the Greater Will (shattering the Elden Ring). This may be another facet of her scheme, to help a Tarnished become Miquella's lord, much like Godfrey was Marika's first lord.

[Lord Bob]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Originally posted by Lord Bob:

Now that you mention it, I believe I got the line completely wrong. He's actually asking Marika if she would sanction lordship in one so bereft of light (where he talks about himself I guess.)
But the way you put it makes a lot of sense as well. He might be completely confused about why Marika would grant a Tarnished the grace of gold.

I don't think it's that she's granting the grace of gold. Remember that she's actively working against the Greater Will (shattering the Elden Ring). This may be another facet of her scheme, to help a Tarnished become Miquella's lord, much like Godfrey was Marika's first lord.

Then I must have misremembered that bit. Is it the Greater Will who gives the grace of gold to the Tarnished?

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by Lord Bob:

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

I don't think it's that she's granting the grace of gold. Remember that she's actively working against the Greater Will (shattering the Elden Ring). This may be another facet of her scheme, to help a Tarnished become Miquella's lord, much like Godfrey was Marika's first lord.

Then I must have misremembered that bit. Is it the Greater Will who gives the grace of gold to the Tarnished?

The Tarnished are bereft of grace since Marika exiled them from the Lands Between, hence "Tarnished".

Edit: Sorry! in other words yes, but the Greater Will wouldn't grant them grace unless there was a good reason to. For example Morgott was an omen (omens don't have grace), but he was granted grace on death for his service in protecting the Erdtree.