Serious Lore Question: Why are we in Crumbling Farum Azula again?

[A]

I actually forget the reason why we're here. Melina burned down the tree, and then we wake up here. But why?

We don't know Maliketh was here right? And Maliketh asks "why covet destined death?" I don't think we planned ahead after we decide to burn down the tree that is blocking our passage, correct?

EDIT: So apparently, the finger crone at the Rold lift tells you that burning the Erdtree will unleash destined death upon the world.

It might suggest that Sacrificing Finger Maiden > Erdtree Burns > Transports you to a point in time where destined death is unleashed by killing its holder?

[Sayo]

HOW do we get there?

[A]

Publicado originalmente por Sabaithal:

There is a lore reason, its just has two parts.

First, Melina burning the tree isn't solving the issue. The rune of death must still be set free, and it is located at Faraam azula.

The second reason goes heavily into symbolism and metaphor unfortunately. Faraam azula being "the land beyond time" only means its disconnected from the rest of the world, yet does not view the stars unlike the underground cities. It is however located, geographically, above the Lands Between. Its heavily implied all the ruins throughout the Lands, limgrave especially, dropped from Faraam azula as it is crumbling. In other words Faraam azula is almost idyllic in many respects, yet no one can reach it simply because they have no memory of it. The lands history has likely been erased, therefore no one can find it because there are no solid links left to it.

And this next one goes into spoiler territory a little bit, but I will censor out those parts. There was a major conflict in Faraam azula involving he Gloam-eyed-Queen and Maliketh. Look at Maliketh's arena, there is clearly history here, its implied the fight between the GeQ and Maliketh took place here and that Maliketh was the invader, therefore its likely this was the home of the GeQ. So then how is the player able to get here? Because the Gloam-eyed-queen, under a different alias, sent you here. This used to be her home, so her "memory" of the place is access in a way, a memory she probably showed you, which is why the player fell unconscious just prior to her burning the tree. How she was able to regain this memory all of a sudden I still haven't figured out. Maybe its possible she regained fragments of her memory after reaching the Erdtree?

Pretty neat, is the 3rd paragraph a theory or is it a fact because that would support who the GeQ is.

Does the GeQ intented to usurp control of the Lands Between? Is she an alternate persona of Melina? At least that's how I pieced what you said, and it's compelling, she casually sends you there as her lap"dog." What if the GeQ is inside her and is dormant? She has genuine plans for the Lands Between until the GeQ surfaces without her prompting. Additionally, unless the GeQ wants conquest, she just wants to replace whatever order Marika wants but not to the vein of destroying the world like the flame of frenzy

[IchigoMait]

Publicado originalmente por Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Publicado originalmente por Drunkenstein:

I think that Crumbling Farum Azula could be a kind of prison and we are sent there for commiting the first cardinal sin.

Alexander did nothing wrong.

Stuffing yourself with corpses, sure nothing is wrong about that. Warrior Jars existence is just killing and filling themselves with corpses.

[Sabaithal]

Publicado originalmente por A:

Pretty neat, is the 3rd paragraph a theory or is it a fact because that would support who the GeQ is.

Does the GeQ intented to usurp control of the Lands Between? Is she an alternate persona of Melina? At least that's how I pieced what you said, and it's compelling, she casually sends you there as her lap"dog." What if the GeQ is inside her and is dormant? She has genuine plans for the Lands Between until the GeQ surfaces without her prompting. Additionally, unless the GeQ wants conquest, she just wants to replace whatever order Marika wants but not to the vein of destroying the world like the flame of frenzy

Everyone who doesn't want spoilers do not read below this.

My theory regarding Melina and the Gloam-eyed-queen is that they are the same person. There are lots of little things, and a few big things supporting this. Little things like the three butterfly variants one can find in the game. The Aeonian butterfly is obviously Malenia, its description outright states this. The Nascent butterfly is obviously representing Miquella in contrast, what with it always looking "eternally young". Then there is the smoldering butterfly, whose nature is obviously tied to fire, just like Melina.

Also the naming convention: Malenia, Miquella, Melina. Melina herself states that her mother is in the Erdtree (so it has to be Marika), and her hair is red which comes from radagon (Even though its hard to tell, it is red).

Melina is associated with fire throughout the game. She burns the Erdtree using a giantsflame in the lands whose very knowledge of is forbidden to most. She also clearly knows of the frenzy flame, hence her trying to ward you away from it. How much you want to be she knows about blackflame as well?

Then there's the pre-history of Maliketh and the GeQ. Maliketh defeated the GeQ, and that is how he acquired the rune of death. The GeQ was its owner prior to that. Melina sends the Tarnished to Faraam Azula to set the rune of death free, otherwise the tree will not be sundered even if it does burn. Therefore she knows of the rune of death, which very few do.

Speaking of which, Melina has her left eye closed, and over that eye is an odd mark, almost like a symbol. Some said this was associated with frenzy, however we've seen the frenzy flame mark many times and it doesn't match. It looks more to me like a claw. Claws associated with beastmen, such as for example, Maliketh. We've already seen that "death" isn't always the end in this world, and Melina herself states she is "burned and bodiless".

A bit of a side thing, but I did try to find the body or resting place of the Gloam-Eyed-Queen ingame. Didn't manage it, until I ran into Alexander at Faraam azula. He was using the power of fire when fighting you here. The shard he drops here is unique variant of his shard, one with the descriptive phrase "Relics of a red-haired champion it would seem". As others have pointed out it could have been radahns hair, BUT this specific shard only drops here, not before this point. You can find and kill Alexander prior to this point but after killing Radahn and the shard he drops doesn't have this description. I'm better he found the GeQs corpse and took it into himself.

And of course there is the massive hint at the end of the frenzy flame ending which ties it all together. She shows up, rather different appearance but its clearly Melina, with her left eye open (just look at it, the description matches the Gloam-Eyed-Queen perfectly) and she promises to grant the tarnished destined death. IE she knows how to wield the rune of death, which very, very few would be able to. She wields the power of various types of flames on top of this, her lineage with Marika/Radagon, and it perfectly explains why she was "borne at the foot of the erdtree" with no memory. She was defeated by Maliketh, and her memories, along with the power of blackflame, sealed for a time. Sealed by the mark Maliketh left over her left eye.

That's my take on it anyway, but I've gotten this from a lot of other people's observations.

[Iareshawn]

Publicado originalmente por Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Publicado originalmente por nfinite.recursion:

No, you did NOT burn down the Erdtree. While the Flame of Ruin is very powerful, it lacks the ability to actually harm the Erdtree in any way...

That's not exactly true. The flame doesn't burn the Erdtree "down", but it does burn away the thorns blocking the entrance. The reason for reigniting the flame was to gain access to Radika and the Elden Blob.

Mr. Beast turns Trans man into a sword then goes for a swim.

[Heimdall313]

Publicado originalmente por Sabaithal:

Publicado originalmente por A:

Pretty neat, is the 3rd paragraph a theory or is it a fact because that would support who the GeQ is.

Does the GeQ intented to usurp control of the Lands Between? Is she an alternate persona of Melina? At least that's how I pieced what you said, and it's compelling, she casually sends you there as her lap"dog." What if the GeQ is inside her and is dormant? She has genuine plans for the Lands Between until the GeQ surfaces without her prompting. Additionally, unless the GeQ wants conquest, she just wants to replace whatever order Marika wants but not to the vein of destroying the world like the flame of frenzy

Everyone who doesn't want spoilers do not read below this.

My theory regarding Melina and the Gloam-eyed-queen is that they are the same person. There are lots of little things, and a few big things supporting this. Little things like the three butterfly variants one can find in the game. The Aeonian butterfly is obviously Malenia, its description outright states this. The Nascent butterfly is obviously representing Miquella in contrast, what with it always looking "eternally young". Then there is the smoldering butterfly, whose nature is obviously tied to fire, just like Melina.

Also the naming convention: Malenia, Miquella, Melina. Melina herself states that her mother is in the Erdtree (so it has to be Marika), and her hair is red which comes from radagon (Even though its hard to tell, it is red).

Melina is associated with fire throughout the game. She burns the Erdtree using a giantsflame in the lands whose very knowledge of is forbidden to most. She also clearly knows of the frenzy flame, hence her trying to ward you away from it. How much you want to be she knows about blackflame as well?

Then there's the pre-history of Maliketh and the GeQ. Maliketh defeated the GeQ, and that is how he acquired the rune of death. The GeQ was its owner prior to that. Melina sends the Tarnished to Faraam Azula to set the rune of death free, otherwise the tree will not be sundered even if it does burn. Therefore she knows of the rune of death, which very few do.

Speaking of which, Melina has her left eye closed, and over that eye is an odd mark, almost like a symbol. Some said this was associated with frenzy, however we've seen the frenzy flame mark many times and it doesn't match. It looks more to me like a claw. Claws associated with beastmen, such as for example, Maliketh. We've already seen that "death" isn't always the end in this world, and Melina herself states she is "burned and bodiless".

A bit of a side thing, but I did try to find the body or resting place of the Gloam-Eyed-Queen ingame. Didn't manage it, until I ran into Alexander at Faraam azula. He was using the power of fire when fighting you here. The shard he drops here is unique variant of his shard, one with the descriptive phrase "Relics of a red-haired champion it would seem". As others have pointed out it could have been radahns hair, BUT this specific shard only drops here, not before this point. You can find and kill Alexander prior to this point but after killing Radahn and the shard he drops doesn't have this description. I'm better he found the GeQs corpse and took it into himself.

And of course there is the massive hint at the end of the frenzy flame ending which ties it all together. She shows up, rather different appearance but its clearly Melina, with her left eye open (just look at it, the description matches the Gloam-Eyed-Queen perfectly) and she promises to grant the tarnished destined death. IE she knows how to wield the rune of death, which very, very few would be able to. She wields the power of various types of flames on top of this, her lineage with Marika/Radagon, and it perfectly explains why she was "borne at the foot of the erdtree" with no memory. She was defeated by Maliketh, and her memories, along with the power of blackflame, sealed for a time. Sealed by the mark Maliketh left over her left eye.

That's my take on it anyway, but I've gotten this from a lot of other people's observations.

problem with theory: the mark on her eye is a cursemark, like Ranni. Ranni's body was burned atop the Divine Tower of Liurnia - she's "burned and bodiless" like Melina. Difference being, Ranni bound her spirit to a puppet (the spirit and the puppet are conjoined at the cursemark), Melina is a spirit unbound to any object that we know of; it's not unreasonable that she might be bound to Torrent's whistle but that's speculation.
Melina's hands are also scarred and burned, she was definitely screwing around with something blasphemous before she was presumably burned to death, intentionally or otherwise.

Melina is also constantly lying to you right from the start, she confesses the first time when she takes you to the roundtable. Her story about just one day, for no reason at all, she woke up burned and bodiless and totally had no idea what her purpose was through no fault of her own? I'll buy it with a $3 bill. She's just manipulative and lying.
She knocks you out at the Giant's Forge, and she definitely had knowledge about the Flame of Ruin. There's a little hallway and nook in an elevator in Lyndell where you can find her dagger. Her bringing you the Medallion to use the Lift of Roald or w/e into the Forbidden Lands and Mountaintops of the Giants, also again heavily implies knowledge of the Flame of Ruin and that she probably was trying to burn the tree before dying.
Probably what she learned after she's a burned and scarred spirit, is the Flame of Ruin alone isn't enough, and the fragment Ranni stole to murder Godwyn wasn't enough either, and has presumably continued her research into the prophecy of the Erdtree's destruction, leading her to Destined Death.
She definitely wants Marika to die, for whatever reason(s), but simply lacks the might to kill the demi-gods for their Great Runes and such.

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Publicado originalmente por Sabaithal:

...Then there's the pre-history of Maliketh and the GeQ. Maliketh defeated the GeQ, and that is how he acquired the rune of death. The GeQ was its owner prior to that...

To offer another take:

Publicado originalmente por Godskin Apostle Robe desc.:

...The apostles, once said to serve Destined Death, are wielders of the god-slaying black flame. But after their defeat by Maliketh, the Black Blade, the source of their power was sealed away.

Publicado originalmente por Godslayer's Greatsword desc.:

Sacred sword of the Gloam-Eyed Queen who controlled the
Godskin Apostles before her defeat at the hands of Maliketh.

The black flames wielded by the apostles are channeled from this
sword.

Publicado originalmente por Scouring Blake Flame desc.:

...The black flame could once slay gods. But when Maliketh sealed Destined Death, the true power of the black flame was lost.

Nothing I'm aware of specifically states the GEQ physically controlled the Rune of Death. However, she did wield the power of the god-slaying black flame, which channeled the power of Destined Death. When Maliketh sealed Destined Death, the black flame became impotent. Marika charged Maliketh to guard the Rune of Death, so it was likely she gave it to him.

Publicado originalmente por Ranni the Witch:

...
I was once an Empyrean.
Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title.
Each of us was chosen by our own Two Fingers, as a candidate to succeed Queen Marika, to become the new god of the coming age. Which is when I received Blaidd. In the form of a vassal tailored for an Empyrean.
...

Publicado originalmente por Maliketh's Armor desc.:

Maliketh, Queen Marika's loyal half-brother, bore a blade imbued with Destined Death, and there was not one demigod who did not fear him.

It depends on what you mean by "pre-history". Personally, what I consider pre-history is anything before the invasion of the Elden Beast. From that perspective, anything involving Maliketh can't be pre-history as the Greater Will created and gifted him to the Empyrean Marika, i.e. after the invasion of the Greater Will, but before Marika's ascendence to godhood.

[Sabaithal]

Publicado originalmente por Heimdall313:

problem with theory: the mark on her eye is a cursemark, like Ranni. Ranni's body was burned atop the Divine Tower of Liurnia - she's "burned and bodiless" like Melina. Difference being, Ranni bound her spirit to a puppet (the spirit and the puppet are conjoined at the cursemark), Melina is a spirit unbound to any object that we know of; it's not unreasonable that she might be bound to Torrent's whistle but that's speculation.
Melina's hands are also scarred and burned, she was definitely screwing around with something blasphemous before she was presumably burned to death, intentionally or otherwise.

Melina is also constantly lying to you right from the start, she confesses the first time when she takes you to the roundtable. Her story about just one day, for no reason at all, she woke up burned and bodiless and totally had no idea what her purpose was through no fault of her own? I'll buy it with a $3 bill. She's just manipulative and lying.
She knocks you out at the Giant's Forge, and she definitely had knowledge about the Flame of Ruin. There's a little hallway and nook in an elevator in Lyndell where you can find her dagger. Her bringing you the Medallion to use the Lift of Roald or w/e into the Forbidden Lands and Mountaintops of the Giants, also again heavily implies knowledge of the Flame of Ruin and that she probably was trying to burn the tree before dying.
Probably what she learned after she's a burned and scarred spirit, is the Flame of Ruin alone isn't enough, and the fragment Ranni stole to murder Godwyn wasn't enough either, and has presumably continued her research into the prophecy of the Erdtree's destruction, leading her to Destined Death.
She definitely wants Marika to die, for whatever reason(s), but simply lacks the might to kill the demi-gods for their Great Runes and such.

I already said the mark on her eye was a seal/curse. Its claw shaped at that, so Maliketh's curse probably. And her hands being burned further reinforces my point with Melina's association with fire in general (fire seemingly viewed as blasphemous no matter the type).

As for her manifesting without a "body"...well you'll notice when she does appear she appears seemingly out of nowhere (using the exact same visual effects that Ranni and Torrent use) and doesn't stick around very long. Simply put, she can only manifest for short periods without a body. Why she can do this...no idea honestly, neither of the three entities (ranni, Melina, torrent) really have an explanation for that.

And yes, she is probably lying to you about several things regarding what she really remembers. Wouldn't surprise me, but she doesn't seem to be trying to re-acquire her former power either.

[SpottedHare]

A lot of players have tried to fan fiction up some ideas, which i have to say are not bad. but really its because we need to grab another plot coupon that happens to be hear for.... well reasons? The game like to talk like a 5 dollar palm reader and make half assed remarks about being on the path of destined death. But never once dose the game world every try to make something coherent out of our chore list. For some reason this random fire can burn down this very specific door but only if we kill the guardian then touch a very specific rune. It's a great example of how lazy "and then" plot writing is.

[Sabaithal]

Publicado originalmente por SpottedHare:

A lot of players have tried to fan fiction up some ideas, which i have to say are not bad. but really its because we need to grab another plot coupon that happens to be hear for.... well reasons? The game like to talk like a 5 dollar palm reader and make half assed remarks about being on the path of destined death. But never once dose the game world every try to make something coherent out of our chore list. For some reason this random fire can burn down this very specific door but only if we kill the guardian then touch a very specific rune. It's a great example of how lazy "and then" plot writing is.

Oh look, another "I am above this lazy writing because I can't figure it out" opinion. How original and something we will totally take under advisement. At some point. Maybe. But probably not.

[The normal one]

We have speculative answers to a few questions. We can understand that the erdtree can't burn without destined death.

As to how+why you get teleported. My theory has to do with motive. Who has motive to send you to CFA to unleash destined death, to really burn the erdtree and kill the gods?

It has to be the Fell God whose flame you are using to initiate the burning. The same god who had beef with marika and lost.

It can't be melina magic because you still teleport if you use flame of frenzy as kindling - when she has abandoned you.

And I doubt it is the greater will sending you to time jail, purely because it would be putting you in a prime position to ♥♥♥♥ everything up by taking malikeths rune. Why would the greater will risk that and send you to the same place he is at.

All of this is as yet unconfirmed, but it makes the most sense, all angles considered.

[LuckyCheshire]

Publicado originalmente por talk to me goose:

As to how+why you get teleported. My theory has to do with motive. Who has motive to send you to CFA to unleash destined death, to really burn the erdtree and kill the gods?

It has to be the Fell God whose flame you are using to initiate the burning. The same god who had beef with marika and lost.

Well, besides the fact that the god of the Fire Giants is the most conveniently nearby, any one of the ten or so other random godish things that the Greater Will quelled fit that description. It could just have easily been the Frenzied Flame, the god of Scarlet Rot, the Cursed Blood one, the Gloam-Eyed Queen, Placidusax taking a rare interest in the rest of the world, probably several others that I'm forgetting...

[Sephylon]

Publicado originalmente por A:

Publicado originalmente por Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Your quest to kill a god and become Elden Lord. Reigniting the flame opens the path. Getting Destined Death gives you the weapon. It's all pretty relevant.

I always thought the weapon was whatever +10/+25 Hewg forges for you. But you never knew Maliketh was there though, right?

Prob not, but you have been told that "The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death."
So while we prob didn't know where we'd end up after, we knew destined death would be there

Edit
I misremembered who said what. The quote above is from melina and her dagger not enia. Enia's quote about the path to destined death was:

"For the flame to burn the Erdtree, a sacrifice is needed. Of one who envisions the flame. And can lead you to the Rune of Death."

[Sabaithal]

I think Melina sends you there on all but the frenzy flame route (in which case the frenzy flame sends you there). It makes sense, as both have the motive (the Erdtree cannot burn until the rune of death is free: kill Maliketh).

How they manage that... well how is Faraam Azula in its own separate instance of time? I'm not sure its supposed to be understandable.