Is Margit The Fell Omen the worst boss in Soulsborne?

[Not_L_Username]

- Follow up combo extenders on potentially every move

- Undodgeable 3 hit combo ending in AOE. Attacks telegraphing doesn't give the player the time to reposition. Forces passive play.

- Broken hitbox on the hammer and stick move in phase 2

- Attacks so slow that they look and feel completely stupid. 3+ seconds is complete garbage and just lazy roll catching.

- Constantly backs off and drags out the fight much longer than it needs to be. Jumps backwards over 50 times if you're doing an SL1 run

- Tiny and narrow arena preventing any form of agression when hes up against the edge

- nsane input reading when using estus and attacking. An absolute joke.

- Random clutter around the arena that serves no purpose than to get in your way

- Will insta dagger if not directly behind him, can't get behind him 50% of the time due to back facing the cliff.

- Entire fight revolves around running towards him and baiting out a hit and hoping for good RNG on one of the few punishable moves.

There's not a single boss from DS to DS remastered that is this terribly designed, especially not as a first boss. What is he even meant to be teaching you? Stay 2 metres away from him and drag out the fight till you hopefully get a punishable attack?

Also to the forum No Lifers who rot on the discussion boards all day, yeah it's me.

[MULTIPASS]

ER is on sale, so I guess we're going to go back over the greatest hits from February 2022.

[ressenmacher]

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

- Broken hitbox on the hammer and stick move in phase 2

Think it's fine, just a very tight (and therefore directionally dependent) timing because you need to move through two active hitboxes with the one roll.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

- Constantly backs off and drags out the fight much longer than it needs to be. Jumps backwards over 50 times if you're doing an SL1 run

And then jumps forwards with a variety of gap closers.

Additionally, it's not really fair to judge a fight on the SL1 version because that's not what the game was ever designed for.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

- Attacks so slow that they look and feel completely stupid. 3+ seconds is complete garbage and just lazy roll catching.

It could probably have been animated more reasonably or something, but I think Margit being a really over the top example of tracking and delayed attacks is pretty good - you get to see it very obviously early on so you understand the principle of what's happening when later enemies do it more subtly. Margit's a teaching tool - "Look, player, here is a delayed, tracking attack. You will learn it here from this really high damage attack because everybody after me does it too except way less obvious."

Plus, it's a window to keep damage and poise damage on, which is nice. More bosses could do with opportunities for aggression within their attacks or combos.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

- Will insta dagger if not directly behind him, can't get behind him 50% of the time due to back facing the cliff.
.

Wot? Margit has no insta dagger; there's the one where he throws it at you and the one where he keeps his dagger after a combo string and yeets it as you as he backs up. Both have a clear tell and the latter is even predictable.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

- Entire fight revolves around running towards him and baiting out a hit and hoping for good RNG on one of the few punishable moves.

Off the top of my head, his leaping gap closer, his double spinny-slash with the stick, the hammer jump, the tail spin, and his overhead slam all have large windows. Others are available; I know there's some way to consistently walk around his slash-slash-groundstab combo, for instance.

Plenty of openings. Maybe if you spent less time trying to position behind him you could punish them?

The rest might have some merit if they were better explained.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

There's not a single boss from DS to DS remastered that is this terribly designed.

POV: you have not fought the Loran Camerabeast in a cursed dungeon.

[NotForMe]

It has been proven that ER does not input read, it animation reads, which is close to the same thing, but not quite.

The newb slayer strikes again. Margit is dummy easy once you figure out his attack patterns.

[Not_L_Username]

Originally posted by MULTIPASS:

ER is on sale, so I guess we're going to go back over the greatest hits from February 2022.

Ok, it's not like I've done him SL1 torch only no hit. Guess I have no clue what I'm talking about and am completely new to the game.

[Not_L_Username]

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

- Broken hitbox on the hammer and stick move in phase 2

Think it's fine, just a very tight (and therefore directionally dependent) timing because you need to move through two active hitboxes with the one roll.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

- Constantly backs off and drags out the fight much longer than it needs to be. Jumps backwards over 50 times if you're doing an SL1 run

And then jumps forwards with a variety of gap closers.

Additionally, it's not really fair to judge a fight on the SL1 version because that's not what the game was ever designed for.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

- Attacks so slow that they look and feel completely stupid. 3+ seconds is complete garbage and just lazy roll catching.

It could probably have been animated more reasonably or something, but I think Margit being a really over the top example of tracking and delayed attacks is pretty good - you get to see it very obviously early on so you understand the principle of what's happening when later enemies do it more subtly. Margit's a teaching tool - "Look, player, here is a delayed, tracking attack. You will learn it here from this really high damage attack because everybody after me does it too except way less obvious."

Plus, it's a window to keep damage and poise damage on, which is nice. More bosses could do with opportunities for aggression within their attacks or combos.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

- Will insta dagger if not directly behind him, can't get behind him 50% of the time due to back facing the cliff.
.

Wot? Margit has no insta dagger; there's the one where he throws it at you and the one where he keeps his dagger after a combo string and yeets it as you as he backs up. Both have a clear tell and the latter is even predictable.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

- Entire fight revolves around running towards him and baiting out a hit and hoping for good RNG on one of the few punishable moves.

Off the top of my head, his leaping gap closer, his double spinny-slash with the stick, the hammer jump, the tail spin, and his overhead slam all have large windows. Others are available; I know there's some way to consistently walk around his slash-slash-groundstab combo, for instance.

Plenty of openings. Maybe if you spent less time trying to position behind him you could punish them?

The rest might have some merit if they were better explained.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

There's not a single boss from DS to DS remastered that is this terribly designed.

POV: you have not fought the Loran Camerabeast in a cursed dungeon.

You know I genuinely appreciate the effort you put into answering all of these. Not a bad response at all and I might try implementing some of this.

[mldb88]

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

Originally posted by ressenmacher:

Think it's fine, just a very tight (and therefore directionally dependent) timing because you need to move through two active hitboxes with the one roll.



And then jumps forwards with a variety of gap closers.

Additionally, it's not really fair to judge a fight on the SL1 version because that's not what the game was ever designed for.



It could probably have been animated more reasonably or something, but I think Margit being a really over the top example of tracking and delayed attacks is pretty good - you get to see it very obviously early on so you understand the principle of what's happening when later enemies do it more subtly. Margit's a teaching tool - "Look, player, here is a delayed, tracking attack. You will learn it here from this really high damage attack because everybody after me does it too except way less obvious."

Plus, it's a window to keep damage and poise damage on, which is nice. More bosses could do with opportunities for aggression within their attacks or combos.



Wot? Margit has no insta dagger; there's the one where he throws it at you and the one where he keeps his dagger after a combo string and yeets it as you as he backs up. Both have a clear tell and the latter is even predictable.



Off the top of my head, his leaping gap closer, his double spinny-slash with the stick, the hammer jump, the tail spin, and his overhead slam all have large windows. Others are available; I know there's some way to consistently walk around his slash-slash-groundstab combo, for instance.

Plenty of openings. Maybe if you spent less time trying to position behind him you could punish them?

The rest might have some merit if they were better explained.



POV: you have not fought the Loran Camerabeast in a cursed dungeon.

You know I genuinely appreciate the effort you put into answering all of these. Not a bad response at all and I might try implementing some of this.

To add to it, he's also there to teach you that bosses operate differently than in souls games. While it does wholesale lift the base mechanics and systems from DS games, the enemy and combat work a bit differently in terms of approach, especially in terms of the enemy AI being a bit more complex (for better or worse sometimes). Dodge rolling / circling behind them and poking them in the butt over and over like with Asylum Demon isn't gonna fly anymore. You have to learn not only the boss's attacks but also how they'll react to you (for example Margit's knife stab/throw after his 3 hit combo depending on your positioning). it shows players coming from DS3 that it isn't all just about memorizing the pattern and going through the motions anymore, you actually have to think and react to what the boss is doing, and make strategic choices on the fly like whether to stay in on the offensive for poise damage or back off and play it safe, where with most souls bosses you were pretty much safe to wail on the boss until it's next attack started up and you knew exactly what it was going to be (usually) from the windup animation.

Some bosses do take this a bit far in terms of their AI being a bit.... hyperactive.... (Maliketh literally playing the floor is lava in some cases while just being big slow brute in others being a prime example), but overall Margit is the perfect wakeup call boss.

Also as others mentioned, SL1 torch only is definitely not the standard to judge a boss by.

[Not_L_Username]

Just because a boss is easy it doesn’t mean he’s mechanically good.

Originally posted by NotForMe:

It has been proven that ER does not input read, it animation reads, which is close to the same thing, but not quite.

The newb slayer strikes again. Margit is dummy easy once you figure out his attack patterns.

[Augustine]

input reading isn't a problem, if a boss didn't have reactivity it might as well be a rhythm game. The problem, perhaps, is bosses often have moves that can punish flask from 100 yards. Additionally, many bosses punish back-rolling and scared play, but only a few punish forward rolling like Margit does with his multi-hit spectral weapon combos. Punishing both forces more reactive play but it's probably fine, with more vigor you can take trades and play more aggressively.

[Not_L_Username]

Damage trading is for the lowest form of souls players I’m ngl. If you’re damage trading you’re not improving and probably don’t have a good understanding of the game.

Originally posted by Augustine:

input reading isn't a problem, if a boss didn't have reactivity it might as well be a rhythm game. The problem, perhaps, is bosses often have moves that can punish flask from 100 yards. Additionally, many bosses punish back-rolling and scared play, but only a few punish forward rolling like Margit does with his multi-hit spectral weapon combos. Punishing both forces more reactive play but it's probably fine, with more vigor you can take trades and play more aggressively.

[Augustine]

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

Damage trading is for the lowest form of souls players I’m ngl. If you’re damage trading you’re not improving and probably don’t have a good understanding of the game.

Originally posted by Augustine:

input reading isn't a problem, if a boss didn't have reactivity it might as well be a rhythm game. The problem, perhaps, is bosses often have moves that can punish flask from 100 yards. Additionally, many bosses punish back-rolling and scared play, but only a few punish forward rolling like Margit does with his multi-hit spectral weapon combos. Punishing both forces more reactive play but it's probably fine, with more vigor you can take trades and play more aggressively.

as someone that enjoys fighting games, knowledgeable trade maximizing is among the highest levels of skill you can ask of a player. Dark souls games are typically so easy that these aren't necessary or have been sub-optimal, but being condescending about it probably says more about your mental than anything.

[Sabaithal]

"Input reading" is just another way of saying "I have not got gud yet and refuse to learn".

[Not_L_Username]

Fighting games are for weebs anyway lol.

Originally posted by Augustine:

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

Damage trading is for the lowest form of souls players I’m ngl. If you’re damage trading you’re not improving and probably don’t have a good understanding of the game.

as someone that enjoys fighting games, knowledgeable trade maximizing is among the highest levels of skill you can ask of a player. Dark souls games are typically so easy that these aren't necessary or have been sub-optimal, but being condescending about it probably says more about your mental than anything.

[Not_L_Username]

Elden Ring players convincing themselves that a terrible mechanic that provides AI with inhuman level reaction times is a good thing. I beat almost every DS3 boss SL1 no hit, and did cancer Margit SL1 No hit too with just a torch. I can guarantee I’m better than you.

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

"Input reading" is just another way of saying "I have not got gud yet and refuse to learn".

[ressenmacher]

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

You know I genuinely appreciate the effort you put into answering all of these. Not a bad response at all and I might try implementing some of this.

You're welcome; I hope it makes the fight more enjoyable on future attempts.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

Fighting games are for weebs anyway lol.

Trying to turn a forum response into video game genera preference superiority has got to be the most flaccid ♥♥♥♥-measuring contest I've ever seen.

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

Elden Ring players convincing themselves that a terrible mechanic that provides AI with inhuman level reaction times is a good thing. I beat almost every DS3 boss SL1 no hit, and did cancer Margit SL1 No hit too with just a torch. I can guarantee I’m better than you.

It's all in how it's used.

For example, the Godskin Apostle (solo fight only!) has input reading used well, where if you try to back off and heal they'll yeet a fireball at you. This encourages the player to stay in close and create healing windows by baiting and dodging attacks - which helps nudge players into realizing that many of the Apostle's attacks can actually be strafed around (whirlwind, jump, etc) from very close range for long punish windows.

It isn't always good (in particular how enemies respond to projectile attacks is absolutely awful on every possible level), but the mechanic isn't awful in and of itself.

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

Elden Ring players convincing themselves that a terrible mechanic that provides AI with inhuman level reaction times is a good thing. I beat almost every DS3 boss SL1 no hit, and did cancer Margit SL1 No hit too with just a torch. I can guarantee I’m better than you.

And I'm a gunner on the side of a space shuttle. You're convincing no one, especially when you're whining about it.