Lore question: Why did the black knife assassins go after Ranni's gang?

[Thomas Devlin]

There are a lot of mysterious tidbits in this game that require you to look pretty deep into the lore to have explained, but there's one moment I never understood, why did the black knife assassins try to kill Blaidd and successfully kill Iji? Ranni was the one that set up the knight of the black knifes so it's confusing that they would turn on them, and you find several corpses around both of them after the attacks, so it was definitely a planned assault. What's even more confusing is that Iji is burning with black flames, not destined death like you would imagine, the only thing I can imagine is the black knife assassins somehow got mixed up with the godskin apostles and they were trying to take out Ranni, but that's just a guess

[Koala 4peace]

Marika behind the Night makes one wonder how much of a horrible parent she was/is!!!

Seriously, there is no much info about Godwyn actions, no?

[Sabaithal]

Hypothesis: Ranni AND Marika set up the night of the black knives, BUT they had different goals in mind. Ranni stole a fragment of the rune of death from maliketh to craft the actual knives.

Marika wanted certain aristocrats taken out of the picture so she may consolidate power away from the Elden Ring and towards the golden order instead/wanted Radagon taken out of the picture somehow(how exactly would this even work?). However Ranni intended, for whatever reason, to kill Godwyn.

We know Marika shattered the Elden Ring shortly after his, so either something went wrong that caused her to do that, or that was her planned attempt to kill the Elden Beast (check Radagon intro, its Marika on an Elden Beast runearc, half destroyed, so she failed).

If Marika was upset by Godwyn's death that would explain the black knives going after Ranni and co. As has already been suggested, Ranni only seems to have supplied the assassins with their weapons, not trained them or set them up personally. Alecto's evergaol at the place only Ranni has access to further reinforces that she had a falling out with the BKAs.

[Koala 4peace]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

If Marika would not have Godwyn dead, and the Black Knives are loyal to her, why would they actually kill Godwyn? Shouldn't they know her enough to not fall for a deception by Ranni?

And if Ranni does not set them up and Marika did not want Godwyn dead, why would they kill him?

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by Koala 4peace:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

If Marika would not have Godwyn dead, and the Black Knives are loyal to her, why would they actually kill Godwyn? Shouldn't they know her enough to not fall for a deception by Ranni?

And if Ranni does not set them up and Marika did not want Godwyn dead, why would they kill him?

Chain of command error possibly? As in Marika gave Ranni the assassins themselves and the general layout of the area, but it was Ranni directing the assassins to their respective targets. If she ordered them to kill Godwyn, there's no way they could have known that Marika did not want this without asking her directly, which was assumed unnecessary.

[Aertes]

Blaidd mentions he had to take care of a traitor instead of going with you to Nokron, maybe it turns out that the black knives have betrayed Ranni as a whole when they find out that Ranni's fate is moving with the stars again and she is after setting up a new world order.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by fauxpas:

The issue is that the Black Knifes are 'scions of the Eternal City' ... and that very strongly indicates that despite thier ties to Marika they are not loyal to the Greater Will or the Golden Order. It also ties the Nox and Numen together given thier rumored ties to Marika.

So the question becomes what was Marika's role, if any in the Night? ... I suspect the DLC is going to be focused on Miq and Goldwyn, so we might get some lore, but I think it'll be more focused on the H-Tree.

Hmmm so here's what we know:

1. The Assassins and Marika are from Numen, and both supposedly had close ties to each other, as described in the Black Knife armor.

2. The Assassins are also described as "scions" of the Eternal City, as said by Rogier, but Marika is not (to my knowledge). A scion is defined as a descendant or heir of something.

But wait: That's confusing, right? If Marika and the Assassins are Numen, why is Marika not referred to as a scion of the Eternal City while the Assassins are? Well, it could be that the Nox (residents of the Eternal City) are actually the Numen - that they are one and the same.

3. How could the Nox and Numen be the same people? "Numen" is an actual word and is defined as divinity or divine will. So maybe the Numen are the Nox who accepted the Greater Will and the Nox were those who resisted it and were subsequently punished by the angry Outer God. And maybe Marika begrudgingly accepted the Greater Will in order to not be punished herself. But naturally, she and the Nox wanted revenge.

4. Perhaps that's why Marika is referred to as Marika, the Eternal. The "Eternal" part could be referring to the Eternal City, too.

5. So Marika pretends to be all cool and good with the GW, doing its bidding and acting as its vessel. But secretly she hates the thing and may have been plotting to destroy it all along, as alluded to by Hewg's dialogue:

"Use my masterpiece to slay a god. That is all that I have lived for. And my promise to Queen Marika."

6. Ranni, being an Empyrean and potential replacement for Marika, could have been working with Marika to achieve that goal. I even remember one of her towers being literally connected to one of the Eternal Cities (could be wrong though).

7. But things get a bit confusing when you consider Godwyn, Marika's favorite child. If Marika and Ranni had the same goal, I guess at some point Ranni decided to betray her and/or their paths diverged somehow. Ranni had the Assassins kill Godwyn, and Marika was so stricken with grief that she destroyed the Elden Ring - or maybe that was the plan all along (we know Marika is cruel and perhaps she didn't even love Godwyn after all).

8. This all makes my head spin and I need to sit down.

SIDE NOTE: What if the Assassins or Marika herself are actually Mimic Tears, which is what the Nox tried to create and ultimately perfect to create their own lord and beat the Greater Will? We know Marika is able to create another version of herself (Radagon), and maybe there only ever was one Assassin (Alecto?) who basically did the same and duplicated herself to create the others? Maybe the Nox created Marika, had her successfully infiltrate the Greater Will's inner circle, and eventually destroy it (which she partly did by shattering the Ring.)

That would be a total mind ♥♥♥♥. And I can't believe I typed that much.

[Ermitaum]

Originally posted by John Titor:

Originally posted by Thomas Devlin:

Lore question: Why did the black knife assassins go after Ranni's gang?

She sent them to clean house.

Makes sense. Once she got what she wanted, she had to tie up lose ends. Man, what a ♥♥♥♥♥!

[fauxpas]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Originally posted by fauxpas:

The issue is that the Black Knifes are 'scions of the Eternal City' ... and that very strongly indicates that despite thier ties to Marika they are not loyal to the Greater Will or the Golden Order. It also ties the Nox and Numen together given thier rumored ties to Marika.

So the question becomes what was Marika's role, if any in the Night? ... I suspect the DLC is going to be focused on Miq and Goldwyn, so we might get some lore, but I think it'll be more focused on the H-Tree.

Hmmm so here's what we know:

1. The Assassins and Marika are from Numen, and both supposedly had close ties to each other, as described in the Black Knife armor.

2. The Assassins are also described as "scions" of the Eternal City, as said by Rogier, but Marika is not (to my knowledge). A scion is defined as a descendant or heir of something.

But wait: That's confusing, right? If Marika and the Assassins are Numen, why is Marika not referred to as a scion of the Eternal City while the Assassins are? Well, it could be that the Nox (residents of the Eternal City) are actually the Numen - that they are one and the same.

3. How could the Nox and Numen be the same people? "Numen" is an actual word and is defined as divinity or divine will. So maybe the Numen are the Nox who accepted the Greater Will and the Nox were those who resisted it and were subsequently punished by the angry Outer God. And maybe Marika begrudgingly accepted the Greater Will in order to not be punished herself. But naturally, she and the Nox wanted revenge.

4. Perhaps that's why Marika is referred to as Marika, the Eternal. The "Eternal" part could be referring to the Eternal City, too.

5. So Marika pretends to be all cool and good with the GW, doing its bidding and acting as its vessel. But secretly she hates the thing and may have been plotting to destroy it all along, as alluded to by Hewg's dialogue:

"Use my masterpiece to slay a god. That is all that I have lived for. And my promise to Queen Marika."

6. Ranni, being an Empyrean and potential replacement for Marika, could have been working with Marika to achieve that goal. I even remember one of her towers being literally connected to one of the Eternal Cities (could be wrong though).

7. But things get a bit confusing when you consider Godwyn, Marika's favorite child. If Marika and Ranni had the same goal, I guess at some point Ranni decided to betray her and/or their paths diverged somehow. Ranni had the Assassins kill Godwyn, and Marika was so stricken with grief that she destroyed the Elden Ring - or maybe that was the plan all along (we know Marika is cruel and perhaps she didn't even love Godwyn after all).

8. This all makes my head spin and I need to sit down.

SIDE NOTE: What if the Assassins or Marika herself are actually Mimic Tears, which is what the Nox tried to create and ultimately perfect to create their own lord and beat the Greater Will? We know Marika is able to create another version of herself (Radagon), and maybe there only ever was one Assassin (Alecto?) who basically did the same and duplicated herself to create the others? Maybe the Nox created Marika, had her successfully infiltrate the Greater Will's inner circle, and eventually destroy it (which she partly did by shattering the Ring.)

That would be a total mind ♥♥♥♥. And I can't believe I typed that much.

I tend to agree with much of that, although I think the Numen were first based on the character creator saying they came from somewhere else, so I personally think the Nox were either a splinter group worshiping thier Stars or perhaps simply the decedents of the Numen similar to how the Astrologers evolved into the Sorcerers.


As for Marika and her children, given her quote about them being sacrifices if they were found unworthy as well as the implied other dead children (per the walking mausoleums) ... I can see her ordering the death of Godwyn as a first strike against the Golden Order, and Ranni betraying everyone by using that death to keep her soul alive.


I don't think any characters are actually Mimics though, partially because I understand there was a mimic quest that was cut content plus the descriptions talk about the Nox attempting to create a lord, but I don't think they ever succeeded.

...

Although I don't completely agree with his timeline, I do like the work the Tarnished Arcologist does in analyzing the building styles and pointing out that the three Eternal Cities fit the overworld map very well. Including the one in Lydell that looks like it would finish the city and connect the main gate.

[LordRhinorex]

Ranni probably didn't send the assassins to "clean" the loose ends, what I believe happened is that first, The Black Knife assassins accepted Ranni's request to kill Godwyn, as it aligned with their goals, but after completing the request, and causing the fall of the Golden order, they most likely saw Ranni as a nuisance to their "future" goal. I mean we know Ranni also suffered a (failed obviously) attempt against her life by them when we find the mask resembling Blaidd's face from an assassin impersonating him, and considering the other attempts against the gang, Blaidd, and Iji it's clear to me that the Black knife assassins were targeting all of them. No, Seluvis wasn't killed by a black knife assassin, he was killed by Ranni herself because of his evil plan to control her. You may also ask, but didn't Ranni send the assassin to kill Blaidd because he was dangerous, well no, she loved his gang (seluvis excluded hehe), and we know Blaidd wasn't exactly out of control yet (at least not completely) because we can free him before finishing Ranni's quest, and he is still sane, tho probably on the verge of madness (which is why Iji imprisoned him). His insanity was most probably triggered by the Black Knife's assassin's attempt to kill him; the tough fight was too heavy of a toll on Blaidd's psyche and he lost control. Why did Iji knew (or was implied he knew his death was near after telling him of Blaidd's death)? Well, I also have an explanation for that: The black knife assassin probably knew that the possibility of killing the gang all at the same time would be impossible or would imply the death of way too many assassins, so they began to target them one by one, beginning by Blaidd; they failed yeah, but WE kill Bladd shortly after their attempt. Then they targetted Iji, but this time, they wouldn't rely on a tarnished coincidentally being there to kill their target for them; so they sent three (or maybe more assassins) and they succeeded but at the cost of their lives (they probably did send more, but apart from the three, the rest died).
Thank you for reading!

[paincanbefun]

Originally posted by fauxpas:

Ranni betrayed them... Ranni... used them to ensure... her vision of the new Age instead of thiers.

Ranni is the worst