[Lore/Spoilers]Frenzy Flame source

[Facetable]

So idea regarding where the frenzy flame actually comes from: The Sun

We know that the Seat of the Sun was power at one point, but that age has long since past (Sun Realm Shield). Instead the sun is now "drained of its color" (implies it originally had color at some point) and it is the star of soulless demigods when eclipsed due to Destined Death being disrupted(Eclipse Crest Greatshield)

In the Frenzy Flame questline, Hyetta states that "what was borrowed must be returned" and in the ending we see that everything burned by the frenzy flame flows into the sky to form a giant yellow object (possibly a sun though notably dark near its center - maybe eclipsed sun?). This seems to imply that this is the true form of the frenzy flame

This also seems to resemble the body/soul duality that this game has with different characters (Ranni is dead in body but alive in soul, Godwyn is dead in soul but alive in body) From this perspective, I see the Frenzy Flame as the sun's soul, though I'm less certain about what the actual sun is. Maybe Destined Death is the sun body? (hence why its eclipsed state benefits soulless demigods)


Thoughts?

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Nah.

Originally posted by Omen Armor description:

Worn by the Dung Eater. The heavy, sun-shaped medallion represents both the guidance he once saw, and the ring to which it will one day lead.

[Facetable]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Nah.

Originally posted by Omen Armor description:

Worn by the Dung Eater. The heavy, sun-shaped medallion represents both the guidance he once saw, and the ring to which it will one day lead.

So dung eater's sun medallion is referencing his mending rune? Interesting

In that case now I'm more wondering as to why he'd see it as an inspiration for spreading the Omen curse/gift to everyone

Could be that the sun also has some connection to the Crucible (related to Omen due to it being origin of horns). Crucible itself has some ties to the frenzy flame due to it being the blending of all life (removing distinguishing features of entities), incompatible with the Erdtree (or at least its form that we see in game), and similarly shunned by the Golden Order

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by Facetable:

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Nah.

So dung eater's sun medallion is referencing his mending rune? Interesting

In that case now I'm more wondering as to why he'd see it as an inspiration for spreading the Omen curse/gift to everyone

Could be that the sun also has some connection to the Crucible (related to Omen due to it being origin of horns). Crucible itself has some ties to the frenzy flame due to it being the blending of all life (removing distinguishing features of entities), incompatible with the Erdtree (or at least its form that we see in game), and similarly shunned by the Golden Order

Both the Sun Realm Shield and the emblem on Dung Eater's armor are nods to Dark Souls. Probably wouldn't read too much into it. Not all elements / descriptions are lore critical.

[Sabaithal]

Well bear in mind there isn't a visible "sun" in this world in terms of the day night cycle, at least not that I have noticed. I assume the light of the Erdtree is instead simulating a similar effect (though its still glowing at night, so who knows).

And a "sun" is still the same as a "star" astronomically speaking, the distinction being one is much closer and much more noticeable. The frenzy flame does take the form of what appears to be a "sun" and not just in the frenzy flame ending either, the tower of frenzy flame in northwest Liurnia (tower of Sauron lol) has a similar sort of effect. Though that tower "blinks" periodically, and I'm uncertain of the significance of that.

So I suppose it is possible that the frenzy flame is another otherworldly being like the outer gods, or possibly just the vassal/emissary of one such being like the Elden ring/beast just looking at it like that.

But then there's of course the whole flame aspect. Flame is a threat to the erdtree for what should be obvious reasons. Bear in mind if you interpret the erdtree as not actually an object, but rather a national and well known symbol, then that which is "flame" is something that could threaten that symbol in some way.

And what do you do in the frenzy flame ending? You burn the erdtree down, along with the whole system. Total anarchy, in effect.

So in short, something core to the frenzy flame itself is such a fundamental threat to the Erdtree that its the Antithesis of it. Almost like it was intended specifically to do so. The question being what specifically is that aspect?

[Facetable]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Both the Sun Realm Shield and the emblem on Dung Eater's armor are nods to Dark Souls. Probably wouldn't read too much into it. Not all elements / descriptions are lore critical.

I didn't read too much into the shield myself as I originally thought the same, but I realized that its drop locations are specific to undead that did not receive Erdtree burial (ones buried outside the catacombs as well as even undead beastmen in Farum Azula) and that the sun definitely has its own role in ER that is distinct from DS (Tons of lore components have connections to the sun in its eclipsed state, and there seems to be a sequence of events regarding how it has changed over time)

If it was just a simple reference I would expect it to be handled similar to how Patches and the old DS chests are treated - Obvious and isolated from the plot, or having no impact on the overall story

Additionally, considering that GRRM was brought on specifically to write the 5000 years that led up to when we play the game, I'm going to go ahead and guess that he wasn't trying to make an elaborate callback to sunbro with this stuff

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by Facetable:

Additionally, considering that GRRM was brought on specifically to write the 5000 years that led up to when we play the game, I'm going to go ahead and guess that he wasn't trying to make an elaborate callback to sunbro with this stuff

I sincerely doubt Miyazaki gave Martin total creative freedom; he probably had just as much of a role (maybe even a bigger one) as Martin lore-wise.

So Dung Eater being a nod to the Sunbro is within the realm of possibility. I like to think that it's an ironic nod since Dung Eater is basically the total opposite of Solaire.

[Facetable]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Well bear in mind there isn't a visible "sun" in this world in terms of the day night cycle, at least not that I have noticed. I assume the light of the Erdtree is instead simulating a similar effect (though its still glowing at night, so who knows).

And a "sun" is still the same as a "star" astronomically speaking, the distinction being one is much closer and much more noticeable. The frenzy flame does take the form of what appears to be a "sun" and not just in the frenzy flame ending either, the tower of frenzy flame in northwest Liurnia (tower of Sauron lol) has a similar sort of effect. Though that tower "blinks" periodically, and I'm uncertain of the significance of that.

So I suppose it is possible that the frenzy flame is another otherworldly being like the outer gods, or possibly just the vassal/emissary of one such being like the Elden ring/beast just looking at it like that.

But then there's of course the whole flame aspect. Flame is a threat to the erdtree for what should be obvious reasons. Bear in mind if you interpret the erdtree as not actually an object, but rather a national and well known symbol, then that which is "flame" is something that could threaten that symbol in some way.

And what do you do in the frenzy flame ending? You burn the erdtree down, along with the whole system. Total anarchy, in effect.

So in short, something core to the frenzy flame itself is such a fundamental threat to the Erdtree that its the Antithesis of it. Almost like it was intended specifically to do so. The question being what specifically is that aspect?

There is a sun that is present in the game, its small but its there... which is part of the reason why I find it interesting as the Erdtree tends to draw attion away from it
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2917128723

Aside from that though, yeah the flame aspect does totally make sense as to why its a threat to the Erdtree, but in the ending its not just burning the tree, its absorbing the tree (the golden trail leading up into the new sun)

This kinda had me thinking about how the sun is also responsible for giving life to trees as they need sunlight to conduct photosynthesis. So if the Golden Order was "borrowing energy from the sun, it could destroy the Erdtree, but just the same it could also be the source of its power if controlled

So it might be that the frenzy flame is the raw uncontrolled state of the power taken from the sun and is a threat, but Erdtree itself may also need the sun's power in order to survive (hence why aspects of the crucible/omens are rejected)

Also, I think the reason why the flame at the tower is flickering is due to the frenzied acolytes not being powerful enough to fully conjure it

[Facetable]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

I sincerely doubt Miyazaki gave Martin total creative freedom; he probably had just as much of a role (maybe even a bigger one) as Martin lore-wise.

So Dung Eater being a nod to the Sunbro is within the realm of possibility. I like to think that it's an ironic nod since Dung Eater is basically the total opposite of Solaire.

If it was just Dung Eater and his medallion then yeah that would be a hilarious reference/parody of Solarie.

But when there's tons of other things like the Eclipse Greatshield saying: "the Soulless demigods like it when the sun is eclipsed because Destined Death itself gets disrupted" its pretty clear that the sun is way more important as its straight up altering how fundamental aspects of ER's reality work

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by Facetable:

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

I sincerely doubt Miyazaki gave Martin total creative freedom; he probably had just as much of a role (maybe even a bigger one) as Martin lore-wise.

So Dung Eater being a nod to the Sunbro is within the realm of possibility. I like to think that it's an ironic nod since Dung Eater is basically the total opposite of Solaire.

If it was just Dung Eater and his medallion then yeah that would be a hilarious reference/parody of Solarie.

But when there's tons of other things like the Eclipse Greatshield saying: "the Soulless demigods like it when the sun is eclipsed because Destined Death itself gets disrupted" its pretty clear that the sun is way more important as its straight up altering how fundamental aspects of ER's reality work

Originally posted by Eclipse Spirit:

...
Ohh great sun! Frigid sun of Sol!
Surrender yourself to the eclipse!
Grant life to the soulless bones!

Originally posted by Eclipse Crest Greatshield description:

Metal greatshield painted with a sun in eclipse. Carried by the headless mausoleum knights.

The eclipsed sun, drained of color, is the protective star of soulless demigods. It aids the mausoleum knights by keeping Destined Death at bay.

It's been a while, there's one more important description I can't find at the moment, but the lore behind Castle Sol / Eclipse stuff is that there's a connection between Miquella and Godwyn. You're kind of barking up the wrong tree with this Frenzied Flame business.

Edit: oh ♥♥♥♥, well here's this...

Originally posted by Eclipse Crest Heater Shield description:

A medium-sized metal shield. Easier to handle than a kite shield.

The sun in eclipse is said to be the symbol of the Wandering Mausoleum where the soulless demigods slumber.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by Facetable:

A medium-sized metal shield. Easier to handle than a kite shield.

The sun in eclipse is said to be the symbol of the Wandering Mausoleum where the soulless demigods slumber.

It's an interesting description because the only soulless demigod we know of is Godwyn after he got bodied super hard by the Black Knives. The description states that apparently there are others.

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush90:

Originally posted by Facetable:

A medium-sized metal shield. Easier to handle than a kite shield.

The sun in eclipse is said to be the symbol of the Wandering Mausoleum where the soulless demigods slumber.

It's an interesting description because the only soulless demigod we know of is Godwyn after he got bodied super hard by the Black Knives. The description states that apparently there are others.

Originally posted by Lhutel the Headless description:

...
Spirit of a headless knight who leads the mausoleum soldiers.
...
Lhutel sacrificed her life so that in Death she could continue to protect a soulless demigod until their revival, earning her the hero's honor of Erdtree Burial.

I think it's safe to assume that all the headless bodies lying in the walking mausoleums are soulless demigods.

[Facetable]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

It's been a while, there's one more important description I can't find at the moment, but the lore behind Castle Sol / Eclipse stuff is that there's a connection between Miquella and Godwyn. You're kind of barking up the wrong tree with this Frenzied Flame business.

Oh no the Eclipse stuff I get as being distinct from the frenzy flame, what I'm referring to is how the sun was in its uneclipsed/pre-drained state.

The "drained of color" statement indicates that the sun used to have a color that it no longer does, and its that component that I see as where the frenzy flame is sourced from in due to how it takes the appearance of a sun in the frenzy flame ending.

Additionally, I think that its specifically the eclipse that is what protects the soulless demigods, not the sun itself as it seems more like its the blocking of the sun that is causing destined death to be disrupted

As a side note, since we're on the subject of Castle Sol, do we know who the Eclipse Shotel is referring to when it talks about avoiding "His gaze"?

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by Facetable:

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

It's been a while, there's one more important description I can't find at the moment, but the lore behind Castle Sol / Eclipse stuff is that there's a connection between Miquella and Godwyn. You're kind of barking up the wrong tree with this Frenzied Flame business.

Oh no the Eclipse stuff I get as being distinct from the frenzy flame, what I'm referring to is how the sun was in its uneclipsed/pre-drained state.

The "drained of color" statement indicates that the sun used to have a color that it no longer does, and its that component that I see as where the frenzy flame is sourced from in due to how it takes the appearance of a sun in the frenzy flame ending.

Additionally, I think that its specifically the eclipse that is what protects the soulless demigods, not the sun itself as it seems more like its the blocking of the sun that is causing destined death to be disrupted...

The eclipse is a metaphor for being soulless. "Drained of color" as in "drained of the essence of being you." Again, I think you're reading too much into this sun stuff.

...As a side note, since we're on the subject of Castle Sol, do we know who the Eclipse Shotel is referring to when it talks about avoiding "His gaze"?

Originally posted by Eclipse Shotel description:

Storied sword and treasure of Castle Sol that depicts an eclipsed sun drained of color. One of the legendary armaments.

In Sol, the sight of an eclipse inspires a dreadful awe, preventing an onlooker from averting his gaze.

The onlooker's gaze, as in the person looking at the eclipse.

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Let me put it like this...

When you talk about life in the Lands Between, you're talking about the Erdtree. It used to be the Crucible, then the Elden Beast fell from the sky and infested the Crucible, which became the Erdtree. All living things come from, and return to, the Erdtree. Now, if you look at the the Erdtree, what's the first thing you'd say? I know what I would say. "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥! That's a bright ass tree!"

The symbol of the eclispe might as well be a picture of a tree being eclipsed, but it seems to me that would be a hard thing to portray visually. In all of the Frenzied Flame lore I've combed through, there's no connection to the sun. If anything, it's more akin to atrophy and the cold death of the universe. The flame consumes everything until nothing is left.

[Facetable]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

The eclipse is a metaphor for being soulless. "Drained of color" as in "drained of the essence of being you." Again, I think you're reading too much into this sun stuff.

Eh I might be reading into it more than I should. Same time though, I don't recall seeing anything explicitly stating that the eclipse is a metaphor for being soulless. This isn't to say I don't agree on that point, its just to point out that we're both reading into this.

I think I'd be reading into it less were in not for the fact that the frenzy flame straight up just forms something that looks like a sun in the ending. If the whole point of that ending is "what was borrowed must be returned", then it seems like it makes sense to say the frenzy flame is connected to the sun somehow.