Discussion: Elden Ring bosses have flawed battle design and do not hold up to Dark Souls 3 standards.

[Lapu]

BEFORE YOU COMMENT ANYTHING: I intend this thread to be a discussion of boss/battle design philosophy, from a choreography and programming/technical perspective; NOT criticism of difficulty per se. I see no issue with Fromsoftware games' difficulty in general. However I can already see the resident lore masters defending bad design by misinterpreting it as a criticism of difficulty and fallaciously pointing out lore implications (i.e. "MaLiKeTh iS sUpPoSeD To bE hARd, hE HaS coNTrOLL oVeR deStiNEd deATh") DO NOT COMMENT ANYTHING IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO TACKLE THE ARGUMENTS THEMSELVES (rebuttals/affirmations) NOR ABLE TO OFFER ANYTHING CONTRIBUTING TO THE TOPIC ABOVE.

That out of the way, I want to discuss how I feel Elden Ring's boss design seems to break with Fromsoft tradition and in the latter half, feels rushed, incomplete, not really play tested and like it was not a big focus in development. The issues that many have already presented are attack and movement compositions that aim to "catch" you instead of what we have experienced throughout the Dark Souls series - obstructing you. The fly in the ointment lies within this philosophy of trying to kill the player by any cheap means necessary instead of trying to get them to engage/disengage, play aggressively/passively. There are several patterns that persist throughout many boss designs where this philosophy shines through:

1. delayed unnatural attacks that are designed to make you panic roll into them (ex. Margit charging his cane for what feels like more than 5 seconds to slam it down on you)
2. telegraphs that are way too short to react to them unless you know it by muscle memory (ex. stomps in general: Godrick's wind stomp, Godfrey's rock stomp, Crucible Knight rock stomp, Margit/Morgott knive throw, Radagon light spears, Astel laser)
3. the absence of openings and attack windows (Morgott, Beast Clergyman, Maliketh, Godfrey come to mind; whereas Mohg gives you ample time during his tres duo unus nihil chain as a contrast)
4. the absence of split aggression in duo boss fights, i.e. the boss in the front should fight normally but the one in the back should only slowly approach or use ranged attacks sporadically with very obvious early telegraphs (Foreskin Duo, do I need to say anything about that?)
5. atrocious input reading and switch between active and passive modes (i.e. bosses retreating and then slowly strolling to react and catch you in your attack or consumable use; best seen in Crucible Knights, Morgott, Godfrey, Foreskin Duo, Malenia)
6. randomly mixed up combos with seemingly no fixed end

Now here's what I think happened: The devs seem to have applied Sekiro boss design to Dark Souls movement and combat. Their intention is us dodging everything masterfully that the enemy throws at us (like the deflecting in Sekiro) and then get in one or two hits while the enemy is whiffing or in (very short) recovery. No wonder then, that people who liked the Dark Souls style back and forth are disappointed. I think the biggesst point of this list here is the mixed up combos and random or sometimes non-existant recovery periods. In Dark Souls games, you'd immediately recognize combo finishers of bosses and know to attack while they are stuck in recovery. Here however, these finishers are not finishers and can immediately chain into another attack. The active/passive modes I've described also look like they were directly copied from Sekiro where they made sense, since getting the enemy to initiate their own attacks that you can then deflect is also "progression". Here however, it just serves to make you get hit. All in all, the bosses feel like an inbetween of Sekiro and Dark Souls with no thought behind the system you are working with and the limitations thereof. Personally, it doesn't feel like the Fromsoft combat I liked but is more reminiscent of the bosses in Code Vein. Another point to consider is that many of the late game bosses have also zero diversity. It's always "dude with weapon that attacks relentlessly". It's like every boss in the end is Pontiff Sulivahn, Soul of Cinder or Gael. Where are the Aldritches, Midirs, Sanctuary Guardians, Demon Princes, Deacons, Wolnirs etc.?

To drive the point home even more, it's not like all bosses are like that. We do have bosses that got the proper "Dark Souls" treatment in here: Regal Ancestor Spirit, Astel, Placidusax, literally all the Dragons, Crucible Knights, Rykard, Rennala, Sir Gideon Ofnir, heck ELDEN BEAST ffs (though the cardio is annoying and a huge flaw, I agree).

What are your thoughts? What are your favorite and most hated bosses? (for me its Placidusax and Elden Beast as the best and Godskin Duo (Noble in particular) as the worst)

[Sparhawk 59]

Last boss if solo should have allowed torrent to be summoned in phase 2.only about 20 original ideas rest are just copy paste. It is as all ds games a learning curve to find the easiest and quickest way to get from start to end killing everything in between.

[『sSs』LEVI]

Da

[Sabaithal]

While it is true that the boss design isn't quite as...tight as is it in souls series, I'm pretty sure it was done that way on purpose. As was pointed out long ago when discussing the Dancer of the Boreal Valley, if every boss has the same rhythm then they become rather easy to adapt to and hence eventually "every boss becomes the same thing".

On the subject of telegraphs though...there really does need to be a clear distinction between a "charge up animation" and a "telegraph". The former is when you can see an attack coming well in advance but you can't necessarily tell exactly when its coming. A telegraph is "the attack is coming NOW, defend yourself". And yes, some bosses lack proper telegraphs to some of their attacks (Malenia, waterfowl, scarlet Aeonia, shadowclone).

But I would counter this by saying that the boss fights aren't designed to be handled the same way as they were in Dark Souls. You aren't necessarily supposed to be up in their face dodging everything, and the bosses themselves are tuned more for dealing with more than one opponent (the big bosses anyway) so they're balanced a bit different. Not to say that you can't DS a boss, but its gonna be more difficult obviously. Still, lack of telegraphs isn't great design.

Duo bossfights do need an AI overhaul, yes. Two crucible knights attacking a single person at once and not taking turns is pretty much impossible to fight without backpedaling around the room constantly.

And please...do not start this "input reading" thing, you're going to bring in the conspiracy theoriests. Yes, many bosses and enemies react when the player uses estus/items which has been true for every previous souls title. And that's it, its just the AI reacting to the player performing an action, its not "input reading". I've fought every boss you listed in this section many times and I promise you they do not read your inputs, its just confirmation bias.

[SakujoSakujoSakujo]

To be fair, it's the first proper open world From's soulslike, so one can understand flaws in balancing and boss combat design. Looking forward to the next one!

[Lapu]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sabaithal:

While it is true that the boss design isn't quite as...tight as is it in souls series, I'm pretty sure it was done that way on purpose. As was pointed out long ago when discussing the Dancer of the Boreal Valley, if every boss has the same rhythm then they become rather easy to adapt to and hence eventually "every boss becomes the same thing".

While you are saying it is done on purpose, I'm not quite sure. To me, it feels like they didn't really test fighting those bosses with enough people going in blind. It looks like they copy pasted the AI of other bosses but didn't do enough adjustments to make it fair. On the other hand, what would support your idea is the time spent on it. I really cannot believe it was unintentional, Fromsoft is not that lazy. Also good point with Dancer but still, Dancer was hard because its movements are very different, Oceiros too. However, both give you ample time to retaliate and I'd argue Elden Ring end bosses are the exact opposite of what you are arguing here. They don't break the mold, Morgott, Mohg, Godfrey, Beast Clergyman, Radagon, Malenia all have the same behavior. The only one here having a "different rhythm" is Maliketh imo. He'd be fine enough if there was more recovery after the big attacks (ground explosion, destined death cut sphere).

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sabaithal:

On the subject of telegraphs though...there really does need to be a clear distinction between a "charge up animation" and a "telegraph". The former is when you can see an attack coming well in advance but you can't necessarily tell exactly when its coming. A telegraph is "the attack is coming NOW, defend yourself". And yes, some bosses lack proper telegraphs to some of their attacks (Malenia, waterfowl, scarlet Aeonia, shadowclone).

True, I vividly see Margit's cane in front of my inner eye here. Would be nice to see something like a little twitch or something as a telegraph before he slams down. Also the homing is quite excessive in many cases. You'd think you could just space out an attack like that, nah.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sabaithal:

But I would counter this by saying that the boss fights aren't designed to be handled the same way as they were in Dark Souls. You aren't necessarily supposed to be up in their face dodging everything, and the bosses themselves are tuned more for dealing with more than one opponent (the big bosses anyway) so they're balanced a bit different.

Great for anyone who likes that but I preferred the system in earlier titles. As I said, this feels like Code Vein to me and makes me not want to play through more consecutive NGs since it feels like an ordeal to die to something random to no fault of your own.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sabaithal:

And please...do not start this "input reading" thing, you're going to bring in the conspiracy theoriests. Yes, many bosses and enemies react when the player uses estus/items which has been true for every previous souls title. And that's it, its just the AI reacting to the player performing an action, its not "input reading". I've fought every boss you listed in this section many times and I promise you they do not read your inputs, its just confirmation bias.

Yeah sorry, I didn't mean it like that. What I mean is that the "passive mode" of some bosses make the reading way more noticable (look no further than the Godskin black flame throw) and of course, it's necessary. But the fun ends when this reading can overwrite their recovery and just cancel an opening.

[ZTL-Altima]

With time passing, not only boss design, but people will end up noticing that every aspect in ER is lacking compared to DS3.

DS3 and Bloodborne tech is of higher quality. ER is more of a continuation of DS2 tech, with inferior lightning, animation, visuals etc.

Even a simple swing of a sword, a roll or a gesture is better animated and more fluid in DS3 and BB.

ER needs all this ugliness to be able to support open world in last gen consoles.
--

And yeah, this bad boss design is another thing reminiscent of DS2. Same strange hitboxes, same unprecise controls, same ugliness all over it.

[HoneyDrake]

The thing to make a boss harder is to create an "off-beat" moment in patterns.

People learn patterns, they react to them. It's an habit.
By using delays you trick the brain of most people, easily, till they learn that specific pattern themselves.

It's fine. Nothing to be mad about. A good idea, after all. You can't make it perfect with all the weapons, skills, etc. in Souls games.

Look at Sekiro: they actually can do proper boss designs as there are less factors to calculate for. No need to create special delays for something like charged attacks, or slow weapons to have a chance, it can actually be some real fluent combat.

Diversity of choices a player can make means the opposite to world and game design choices: you are limited to what you can do to make it an enjoyable experience.


ER has tons of issues, it's still more fun than DS3. Hope that the next Souls Game actually adresses those properly.

[Videogame Jukebox]

I dont mind anything except the auto aiming if you roll out of the way.

[FIRE]

Some things you said are correct and others are just an obvious complete lack of skill/knowledge on your part.

''telegraphs being too short for you to react to'' and the things you listed as an example is entirely a you problem. They are completely fine.

''absence of openings'' again, a you issue. Every single boss has many openings.

''input reading''- has been a thing in previous games as well.

''randomly mixed combos''- makes fights better and more interesting.

The only thing I agree with is with the delayed attacks being too many and too weird to predict sometimes and the duo fights being trash. Everything else seems like the ramblings of a ds3 player that can't handle the fact that he's bad at this game and blames the game instead. If you want a ds3 copy then just replay ds3. They mostly improved the previous boss fights that were too easy and too samey.

Spamming the roll brainlessly when you see any animations in ds3 and getting away with it is not a superior combat design, it's the opposite.

[miku]

good

[Aldain]

I agree entirely.

Things are TOO fluid in Elden Ring, creating this constant stream of attacks in a lot of situations. This is why I have been saying Elden Ring is too reliant on I-frames for player survival.

Even compared to something like Monster Hunter (which loves its I-frames) Elden Ring is BEYOND that in terms of the design due to the slowness of the player compared to the enemies.

This is why the bosses of Elden Ring are not good in my opinion, they don't account for the player's abilities/speed, which is why the input reading feels even more egregious than prior titles because there are few moments when most stronger enemies CAN'T immediately react to a player. Add in the usual (if not sometimes moreso than usual) janky hitboxes and the fact that enemies hit like a train compared to older titles (hell even compared to Bloodborne at times imo) and it just keeps adding stress fractures everywhere.

There's a disconnect between player and enemy, and that holds Elden Ring back from being as good as it could be.

[königplatzen]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Lefis:

There are several patterns that persist throughout many boss designs where this philosophy shines through:

1. delayed unnatural attacks that are designed to make you panic roll into them (ex. Margit charging his cane for what feels like more than 5 seconds to slam it down on you)
2. telegraphs that are way too short to react to them unless you know it by muscle memory (ex. stomps in general: Godrick's wind stomp, Godfrey's rock stomp, Crucible Knight rock stomp, Margit/Morgott knive throw, Radagon light spears, Astel laser)
3. the absence of openings and attack windows (Morgott, Beast Clergyman, Maliketh, Godfrey come to mind; whereas Mohg gives you ample time during his tres duo unus nihil chain as a contrast)
4. the absence of split aggression in duo boss fights, i.e. the boss in the front should fight normally but the one in the back should only slowly approach or use ranged attacks sporadically with very obvious early telegraphs (Foreskin Duo, do I need to say anything about that?)
5. atrocious input reading and switch between active and passive modes (i.e. bosses retreating and then slowly strolling to react and catch you in your attack or consumable use; best seen in Crucible Knights, Morgott, Godfrey, Foreskin Duo, Malenia)
6. randomly mixed up combos with seemingly no fixed end

To 1. its a matter to learn boss fight and those delayed attacks are very learnable.
To 2. Telegraphs get more obvious, if you know, they can come. Again a matter of learning the boss fight and expect those attacks. I guess, that's also muscle memory.
Also, some attacks are followup of certain combos. So if you spent too long for the punish, you can't get away fast enough (esp. Godrick's wind stomp)
To 3. Most bosses have openings based on your positioning. Some combos only continue, because your are in a certain position. It's a matter to find a way to bait the right combos and then you can attack. F.e. I'm about to get off charged R2s with a large club consistently on Beast Clergyman after a certain combo.
To 4. Agree, Duo boss fights are too random
To 5. Agree, the reaction is a bit too instant.
To 6. See 3.

[vamirez]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Lefis:

defending bad design

What you guys never understand is that you skipped the "is this really bad design?" discussion and just assume it is.

DO NOT COMMENT ANYTHING

You can't keep anyone from giving their opinion, however much you want to control a thread.

rushed, incomplete, not really play tested and like it was not a big focus in development. The issues that many have already presented

So, you have already decided that it's all crap and want to have a serious discussion about this topic by listing four unfounded, biased accusations, and again assume that everyone already agreed on this.

trying to kill the player by any cheap means necessary

And so it goes on...

it's not like all bosses are like that

Note that this statement doesn't change the issues I just mentioned.

Why did I write this? To show why some folks react badly to this type of hot theory threads.

[hemorrhage911]

Dark Souls 3 is only slightly above Dark Souls 2 combat, and many things it did worse. It is absolutely a roll spam fest of game while Elden Ring punishes you, rightfully, for doing that.

To suggest DS3 is anything more than a bare bones action RPG is nostalgia blinding.

[hemorrhage911]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Parsify:

With time passing, not only boss design, but people will end up noticing that every aspect in ER is lacking compared to DS3.

DS3 and Bloodborne tech is of higher quality. ER is more of a continuation of DS2 tech, with inferior lightning, animation, visuals etc.

Even a simple swing of a sword, a roll or a gesture is better animated and more fluid in DS3 and BB.

ER needs all this ugliness to be able to support open world in last gen consoles.
--

And yeah, this bad boss design is another thing reminiscent of DS2. Same strange hitboxes, same unprecise controls, same ugliness all over it.

LOL DS3 had most of it's mechanics ripped apart in it's final year of development. The high praise DS3 gets is incredibly odd to me, that game is a mess.

Some of you still haven't gotten over that you're getting owned by delayed attacks and it really shows.