Delayed attacks discussion

[yds]

Okay, so I started with Dark Souls Remastered, then DS2, then DS3, then Elden RIng. (Not counting Sekiro, it's a completely different game).

And what I noticed was that the amount of delayed attacks increased with each game. Of course, DS1 bosses and enemies already had delayed attacks, but the telegraphs worked differently. Namely, I could predict by the animation when the attacks is coming. Even when encountering the enemy the first time. Probably Manus was the only exception.

Then the delayed attacks not only increased in frequency, they also became much harder to predict. That is, the enemy moves in a completely unnatural way, so my brain simply refuses to judge the timing correctly.

In Elden Ring it feels like every enemy and especially every boss work in that way. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but for me it leads to the necessity of learning each and every timing to the point I can instinctively avoid the attack. And it takes a long time.

What's your experience? Were you able to predict most attacks just from the animations, without the need to try (and fail) again and again? Do you agree with my general point that delayed attacks in the Souls series became more frequent and more complex?

[Tikus Tycoon]

I dont care, i just adapt whatever kind of attacks and whatever speed in each game

[Washing Machine]

Yeah, it started with Logarius delaying attacks in his combos to catch you mashing dodge after you get hit to hit you again. Nameless did the same shtick.

Now like every boss does this shtick, raise the weapon, wait a full second, then it zaps down instantly. I really loved the fatty knight who jumps in the air and just stops up there and floats in the air a while to delay the big stomp. It all means you have to memorize every delay, and often changes the usual gameplay "dodge then counterattack" into "actually attack during the windup and then you dodge".

Chalk it up to ER being very different gameplay wise from what you got used to in Souls I suppose. Souls series is more methodical and slow for sure.

[Sabaithal]

I think I know what you're referring to, and to some degree I have to agree. I think there needs to be a clear distinction between a "telegraph" and an "excessively delayed" animation.

What does that mean? A telegraph, when used in its traditional meaning in these games, is when an enemy animation indicates an attack is about to happen with such timing as to indicate dodge RIGHT NOW.

An excessively delayed attack is when an enemy animation starts indicating an attack is going to happen, but that its happening long enough that dodging immediately is too early. And yes, previous souls games did have some enemies with these. The thing is many enemies with excessive delays also had proper telegraphs in the same animations (taurus demon for example), so it wasn't a big deal.

I think a lot of complaints about mainline bosses in this game comes from excessive delay without a reasonable telegraph (attack animation itself happens too fast to react reasonably). And I kind of agree, I get it and I'm not a fan of that either. But I'm one of the purists who believe that "good" design constitutes that every attack should be eminently readable and dodgeable the very first time the player sees it happen (doesn't mean I can actually manage it, but still).

[TyresTyco]

Baba Miyazaki always has to top himself with some cheap tricks. His definition of difficulty mostly revolves around ganks and different attack timings and telegraphs or just some gimmicks like dmg aura or stuff like that.

He can't just copy paste boss design patterns from all the former games (not even more lol). Thats why we can make a drink inbetween some of margits attacks.

I'm not even complaining. Really. But.. at this point I'm scared for later games. How does he want to top himself again? Bed of chaos 2.0 x 5? Maliketh but with 2 whole bars, lifesteal and lifedrain with only half a second of punish windows?

Once we see something like Isshin in a souls combat game I effin quit lol.

[BoxerDanc]

I agree 100%, they overused it in Elden ring, every other enemy does it.

[P.]

You need spider reflexes

[Toad]

Fromsoftware are forever cursed to create games in the Souls series that need to be increasingly difficult for 'hardcore' players, while at the same time still accessible for newcomers.

The current version of this for Elden Ring is the unconventional attack wind-ups/increased combo aggression, and the new Spirit Ash mechanic.

First introduces more reflex-heavy timings for advanced players who have settled into the Souls formula, and the second is to mitigate the length of time new players have to deal with the increased aggression.

None of this would be a thing if it wasn't for BandaiNamco's ridiculous marketing, and the vocal minority in the Souls community that scream about the games are a badge of honour to complete.

[SpottedHare]

The thing you have to understand about delayed attacks is that they are interned to be non logical attacks. This make it very likely that players will be forced to fail, which is the goal of their design. The bier problem is that this is shallow design, if your designing systems to punish players for engaging with systems then the simplest solution is to not engage. Already by the first day the players i helped get past bosses that did the best were the one playing extremely defensively, running away till they saw the most forgiving opening.

[königplatzen]

The worst are the bigger axe misbegottens. How many seconds, do they delay, idk.

But, i think its worse, if an enemy keeps spamming attacks and you don't find a punish window. Some examples are Gideon on everything, Draconic Tree Sentinel fire ball, Loretta glintblades and the fast magic shot. Morgott to some extend. Malenia repeating the pirate slash over an over. Ranged magic spammers in general.

[Nibbie]

I haven't had any particular difficulty with that, no. Perhaps you just need to watch the animations more carefully? I certainly agree that they have gotten more tricky over time, but typically paying close attention to the attacking arm, or some other part of the body depending on the enemy and attack, gives just enough warning.

For example, when the Watchdog enemies raise their sword, they raise it straighter just before smashing it down; the moment you say that extra extension is the moment you dodge. A couple of their other attacks have them pull back their sword before swinging in an arc, and they stop moving it back right before their swing; that moment of stopped movement is your cue to dodge, not the pull back. The Watchdog is an easy example because of how stiff its movement is, but most enemies have something similar. The idea behind the delayed attacks is to punish panic rolling, so you just have to roll smarter instead (or block, that is often an option as well).

[Sabaithal]

Arguably I do think some of the problem is that many players (including myself sometimes) approach the bosses in this game as if they are supposed to be fought the same way souls bosses are. They aren't, they really aren't. They don't have the same timings or rhythm, they have quick attacks, excessively delayed attacks with no telegraphs, a few have new tricks like lingering AoEs (radagon), etc.

Arguably if you play more at mid-range, take advantage of visible openings, use spirit ashes, ranged weapons, shields, etc, the bosses are much more doable.

[𝑀𝓊𝑔𝑒𝓃]

Muscle memory needed tuning on my end and now it feels " normal "

The moment the players let go of the habits they picked up in the earlier souls games the easier the dodge timings become , input reading on the other hand is still annoying

[vukotlak]

So far i though most of the game worked well and had a good pacing. You kinda get a feeling for the delayed attacks as there is a overabundandece in boss fights.

However i am just at the end of the game and i think the pacing there went downhill. There are just too many bosses in a row where you need to learn the patterns. It's okay if you get 2-3 hours of chill gameplay and then a boss you need to try 3-4 times to get all the timings.

But at the end they throw boss after boss and you allways need to learn new timings. And it made me mad. It's just not a good idea to throw so many bosses at you with basicly no real gameplay between. And everyone of those last bosses can kill you in 2 hits and you don't know the timings when you first encounter em.

I think everyone who played till the very end is absolutly capable to deal with the bosses. It is just the question how many times you die to learn the pattern. I do not exactly think that this is brilliant game design. The game was realy great but i feel the end is just too much.

[Ermitaum]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq_76bhHXwA

[FIRE]

I think they definitely overdid it in some cases. But it's not that bad most of the time.