Lore question

[Grad]

I am a little confused. I was under the impression that the Rune of Death was stolen by Ranni during the Night of Black Knives.
So why are the Black Knife assassins hunting her? I saw a lot of them dead in front of Rannis Rise where you find Blaidd, and all around Iji.

[John Titor]

They're not. She controls them. She sent them to kill off Blaidd and Iji.

[John Titor]

Originally posted by Seigrat:

Originally posted by John Titor:

They're not. She controls them. She sent them to kill off Blaidd and Iji.

I don't think that's right because the piece of Destined Death that she stole was left behind on her old body meaning she wouldn't have control over them any more. My theory is that the Assassins have either gone rogue due to Destined Death being fractured or they are under the control of Maliketh who sees Ranni as a threat.

That's fine, you can believe whatever you wish.

Edit: I threw some subtle shade in another thread for people not sourcing stuff, and here I did the same. Shame on me.

When speaking to Ranni at the Nokstella Waterfall Basin Site of Grace

Originally posted by Ranni:

Even when I turned my back upon the Two Fingers.
Blaidd remained my loyal ally.
Heh. Though he was created a vassal for an Empyrean,
He was a colossal failure, on the part of the Two Fingers.
Blaidd, and Iji both... Art willing to give too much to me.
Yet they both understand. What lieth beyond the dark path...
That I must betray everything, and rid the world of what came before.
Ah, should I add thee to the list?
Another one, kind of heart. As kind of heart as they.
Ach, this form hath loosened my tongue.
I've let slip too much.
Forget what thou'st heard. Forget.

She lets slip that she must kill Blaidd and Iji. Iji knows it's coming...

Blaidd’s Death

Originally posted by Iji:

Unthinkable, how could Blaidd… How did he break free from his cell? No, more importantly… Blaidd became a curse that plagued Lady Ranni, yet in madness, gave himself to her. I’ve made a grave misjudgement. And I thought myself a capable war counselor… I’ll catch up with you soon enough, Blaidd. When I do, I only hope you’ll accept my apology.

[GoreTiger]

Originally posted by John Titor:

They're not. She controls them. She sent them to kill off Blaidd and Iji.

Yeah this isn't the impression I got either, Especially how they make it sound like the black knives betrayed ranni during the night of the black knives and didn't follow the plan.

It also doesn't make sense for Ranni to kill iji.

I moreso took it that Ranni was hiding from the BN's in the puppet body, But the traitor exposed who she was to the knives, and when we bring ranni the finger slayer the knives realized what was happening and decided to make their move on ranni and her followers. They don't want the academy or Ranni's heritage in power either.

But I could be very wrong, the story telling in this game is pretty bad at times.

[vamirez]

As far as I understood it the Assassins are an organization, like a guild. Even if you work with them at one point, they can get sent after you at another time.

@John - in the first source the highlighted line may be about Ranni's ultimate plan and not about sending killers. From her perspective she would have no need at all to kill her own group because they are not trying to stop her. Blaidd being a failure means that he was a failure as an instrument of the Two Fingers who would be commanded to turn against his charge if needed. He didn't do that. The first four lines state that very clearly. And the "list" refers to ppl who understand her plan and help her, and are kind of heart, it's not a list of assassin targets.

[John Titor]

Originally posted by vamirez:

As far as I understood it the Assassins are an organization, like a guild. Even if you work with them at one point, they can get sent after you at another time.

@John - in the first source the highlighted line may be about Ranni's ultimate plan and not about sending killers. From her perspective she would have no need at all to kill her own group because they are not trying to stop her. Blaidd being a failure means that he was a failure as an instrument of the Two Fingers who would be commanded to turn against his charge if needed. He didn't do that. The first four lines state that very clearly. And the "list" refers to ppl who understand her plan and help her, and are kind of heart, it's not a list of assassin targets.

Blaidd IS try to stop her/you. Blaidd is the Baleful Shadow that invades you just before rot lake.

[Sabaithal]

The rune of death is currently under the possession of Maliketh (until you kill him), the major fragment of it anyway. The BKAs use the same ability that maliketh uses for most of his attacks (destined death) so I think its safe to say the two are connected or at least have a similar origin. Just judging from that I'm still more angling towards the theory that Marika is the one who was controller the BKAs instead of Ranni (mostly factoring in their abilities, fighting style which is identical to Melina, weapons which are also similar to Melina's, etc).

Ranni did possess the rune of death at one point, but it was taken off of her corpse.

On a side note Ranni's corpse appears to have been burned. I don't have much evidence for this but I suspect that it wasn't Maliketh who took the rune of death from her.

[vamirez]

Originally posted by John Titor:

Originally posted by vamirez:

As far as I understood it the Assassins are an organization, like a guild. Even if you work with them at one point, they can get sent after you at another time.

@John - in the first source the highlighted line may be about Ranni's ultimate plan and not about sending killers. From her perspective she would have no need at all to kill her own group because they are not trying to stop her. Blaidd being a failure means that he was a failure as an instrument of the Two Fingers who would be commanded to turn against his charge if needed. He didn't do that. The first four lines state that very clearly. And the "list" refers to ppl who understand her plan and help her, and are kind of heart, it's not a list of assassin targets.

Blaidd IS try to stop her/you. Blaidd is the Baleful Shadow that invades you just before rot lake.

No, he isn't. Blaidd is not unique - that guy also looks like a wolf-dude or takes this form on purpose here, but it's not Blaidd.
https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Baleful+Shadow

"I turned my back on the Two Fingers and we each have been cursing the other since. The Baleful Shadows... are their assassins."

"Resembles Blaidd the Half-Wolf. They even share the same moveset.

However, the Baleful Shadow's sword is imbued with Destined Death, not the Frost enchantment that Blaidd's sword is enchanted with, further signifying the shadow’s allegiance to the Two Fingers."

[Grad]

Originally posted by vamirez:

Originally posted by John Titor:

Blaidd IS try to stop her/you. Blaidd is the Baleful Shadow that invades you just before rot lake.

No, he isn't. Blaidd is not unique - that guy also looks like a wolf-dude or takes this form on purpose here, but it's not Blaidd.
https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Baleful+Shadow

"I turned my back on the Two Fingers and we each have been cursing the other since. The Baleful Shadows... are their assassins."

"Resembles Blaidd the Half-Wolf. They even share the same moveset.

However, the Baleful Shadow's sword is imbued with Destined Death, not the Frost enchantment that Blaidd's sword is enchanted with, further signifying the shadow’s allegiance to the Two Fingers."

Ahh I was wondering this as well! Thank you for the clarification for that as well!

[GoreTiger]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

The rune of death is currently under the possession of Maliketh (until you kill him), the major fragment of it anyway. The BKAs use the same ability that maliketh uses for most of his attacks (destined death) so I think its safe to say the two are connected or at least have a similar origin. Just judging from that I'm still more angling towards the theory that Marika is the one who was controller the BKAs instead of Ranni (mostly factoring in their abilities, fighting style which is identical to Melina, weapons which are also similar to Melina's, etc).

Ranni did possess the rune of death at one point, but it was taken off of her corpse.

On a side note Ranni's corpse appears to have been burned. I don't have much evidence for this but I suspect that it wasn't Maliketh who took the rune of death from her.

I could of sworn I read somewheres that the BKA's stole a piece of destined death from Maliketh. I assumed that they had stolen a fragment of his sword and then turned it into an assassin's dagger infused with the power of death.

The picture of events I was assuming happened was: Marika had conspired with Ranni and their true target was Radagon. Because think about it, If Marika truly wanted to rebel, She'd have to get radagon out of the way. Marika wanted radagon gone to sever his devotion to the Golden order from her body, And Ranni would want him gone not only to help get rid of the golden order, but also as personal revenge for her mother.
Makes sense marika and Ranni would team up in secret:Ranni and raya lucaria worship the stars and the powers of the universe, while Marika's race seems to be explorers of the universe in a way.
Radagon was the ball and chain to Marika's true freedom to rebel against the golden order.
On the night of the assinations, For whatever reason the assassins weren't able to get Radagon, So they betrayed the plan (and ranni) and decided to go for the demi god they could get their hands on: Marika's son godwryn.
This of course sent Marika into a fit of devestation. Did she believe that ranni betrayed her? It's speculation.
Marika destroying the elden ring is up for speculation as well. It could be that she planned to do that from the beginning, Believing that if she shattered the elden ring it would weaken the order's hold over the land and it's forces to allow the tarnished to rise up.
It's also possible she did it as a desperation move, Out of fear that either Radagon or the BKA would take control of the ring.

Ranni, On the other hand stole back the piece of death from the assasins after they killed godwryn and decided to flee.
Ranni would of known that Marika would blame her for the events that happened and send someone to hunt her down for it. Ranni decided to take the piece of death and her rune piece to the top of the tower and sacrifice herself, likely with the piece of death. Killing her most likely drained the last energy of death from the stolen piece. Very likely she had seluvas burn her corpse afterwards so nobody could tell who she really was if they happened to come across her body.
And thus Ranni was reborn, in a puppet that took after a witch she'd known as a child.

My interpretation is prob wont on more then a few accounts, so take what I said with speculation.

[Grad]

Originally posted by GoreTiger:

snip

I don't really understand the dual personas of Radagon, because Marika is Radagon that we find out doing Goldmasks questline.
Did he learn a form of rebirth somehow from Rennala in Rya Lucaria while he was married to her? This always confused me how he could be both.

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by GoreTiger:

I could of sworn I read somewheres that the BKA's stole a piece of destined death from Maliketh. I assumed that they had stolen a fragment of his sword and then turned it into an assassin's dagger infused with the power of death.

If you can find a source for that I'd love to see it, there's so little known about the BKAs as it is.

And while I do agree that Ranni's MO does match with the night of the black knives, that's about it. Ranni was a sorcerer (associated primarily with frost), but the BKA's clearly use incantations (destined death).

And again, their fighting style and weapons are nearly identical to Melina's, whom we know is related to Marika's bloodline (in what capacity exactly is up for debate, most are going with "daughter"). Simply put their identifiable aspects and methods align far more with the Royal family than they do Ranni/Renalla's bloodline and methods. And Marika has her own MO for causing the night of the black knives as well (opposition to the greater will, which she ended up trying to resort to personally and failed, which is how she ended up trapped on Elden Beast's Rune Arc in the tree).

Also I'm not entirely convinced that Radagon didn't oppose the Greater Will in the end. Yes he was the head of the Golden Order, but lets not forget that one of the endings is "perfect order" which re-establishes the GO in power while also cutting the connection with the greater will, so its not a garuntee that Radagon supported them either.

And while he does fight you in the Erdtree, half of his body is destroyed and the runes of the Greater will can be seen clearly in the opening cutscene on the inside of his body. Not to mention the Elden Beast turns him into a sword after you beat him. He could easily have been possessed, moving as a puppet as it were considering what we were seeing (he also doesn't say a bloody word).

All this while wielding the very same hammer that broke the Elden Ring. It was Marika who dropped from the shattered rune arc, but she turned into Radagon the moment she grasped that hammer, implying only Radagon can wield it. Meaning if that's true Radagon must have been the one to actually shatter the Elden Ring to begin with. I doubt the greater will would have approved of that, considering...

[Alexis Machine]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Originally posted by GoreTiger:

I could of sworn I read somewheres that the BKA's stole a piece of destined death from Maliketh. I assumed that they had stolen a fragment of his sword and then turned it into an assassin's dagger infused with the power of death.

If you can find a source for that I'd love to see it, there's so little known about the BKAs as it is.

And while I do agree that Ranni's MO does match with the night of the black knives, that's about it. Ranni was a sorcerer (associated primarily with frost), but the BKA's clearly use incantations (destined death).

And again, their fighting style and weapons are nearly identical to Melina's, whom we know is related to Marika's bloodline (in what capacity exactly is up for debate, most are going with "daughter"). Simply put their identifiable aspects and methods align far more with the Royal family than they do Ranni/Renalla's bloodline and methods. And Marika has her own MO for causing the night of the black knives as well (opposition to the greater will, which she ended up trying to resort to personally and failed, which is how she ended up trapped on Elden Beast's Rune Arc in the tree).

Also I'm not entirely convinced that Radagon didn't oppose the Greater Will in the end. Yes he was the head of the Golden Order, but lets not forget that one of the endings is "perfect order" which re-establishes the GO in power while also cutting the connection with the greater will, so its not a garuntee that Radagon supported them either.

And while he does fight you in the Erdtree, half of his body is destroyed and the runes of the Greater will can be seen clearly in the opening cutscene on the inside of his body. Not to mention the Elden Beast turns him into a sword after you beat him. He could easily have been possessed, moving as a puppet as it were considering what we were seeing (he also doesn't say a bloody word).

All this while wielding the very same hammer that broke the Elden Ring. It was Marika who dropped from the shattered rune arc, but she turned into Radagon the moment she grasped that hammer, implying only Radagon can wield it. Meaning if that's true Radagon must have been the one to actually shatter the Elden Ring to begin with. I doubt the greater will would have approved of that, considering...

The fact that Ranni was the mind behind the event of the Night of the Black Knives is not in doubt, here are the relevant quotes:

Sorcerer Rogier (when you retrieve a black knifeprint from a Black knife Assassin):

"This...is a black knifeprint! I can scarcely believe you managed to get your hands on this!
You recall our conversation about the Night of the Black Knives, yes? They say the assassins who carried out the deed were scions of the Eternal City. A group entirely of women, arrayed in armour of silver under cloaks which fooled the eye.
The knives they wielded though, were imparted with the power of the Rune of Death through sinister rite.
Please, I beg of you, lend me the knifeprint for a time. I'd love nothing more than to tease out its secrets.
Though only a fragment, a very specific ritual had to be performed to impart the power of the Rune of Death. Traces of the one who performed the rite are sure to remain in the imprint...
Half my body has been suffused with Death. I'm certain it will help me see."

Again Rogier, later (having finished his examination of the knifeprint):"Ahh, hello. I was hoping to see you.
My examination is complete. Here's the knifeprint back, with my thanks.
[Gives you Black Knifeprint]
Now, I have a fairly good idea who performed the rite upon the blade. The person who orchestrated the Night of the Black Knives.
Lunar Princess Ranni. One of the children born to King Consort Radagon and his first wife, Rennala. Demigod and sister to General Radahn and Praetor Rykard. Her's was the name I discovered in the imprint."

Ranni (when confronted aobut the events of the Night of the Black Knives): "I see. Quite the sleuth, aren't we.
Indeed, I am the witch Ranni.
I stole a fragment of the Rune of Death, and used it to forge the godslaying black knives through fearsome rite.
I did it all.
But sadly for thee, the cursemark thou seekest is not to be found here.
I have slain the body I was born into, and cast it away.
And it is upon that flesh the cursemark is carved."

Ranni never possessed the entire Rune of Death, only a small fragment stolen from Maliketh by the Black Knives themselves; she used it to perform a dark ritual which imbued the blades of the assassins with Destined Death, then lent what remained to Rykaard in case he had to face Maliketh (quite a death sentence for the poor praetor, if you ask me, and a way to conveniently dispose of a coconspirator and now useless accomplice while covering her traces..). She did possess an unnamed Great Rune, but it was "cast aside" (source Gideon, and Ranni herself) when she slew her original, Empyrean body. The cursemark she mention is NOT the fragment of the Rune of Death, but an entirely different thing, needed to complete Fia's quest.

[John Titor]

Originally posted by vamirez:

Originally posted by John Titor:

Blaidd IS try to stop her/you. Blaidd is the Baleful Shadow that invades you just before rot lake.

No, he isn't. Blaidd is not unique - that guy also looks like a wolf-dude or takes this form on purpose here, but it's not Blaidd.
https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Baleful+Shadow

"I turned my back on the Two Fingers and we each have been cursing the other since. The Baleful Shadows... are their assassins."

"Resembles Blaidd the Half-Wolf. They even share the same moveset.

However, the Baleful Shadow's sword is imbued with Destined Death, not the Frost enchantment that Blaidd's sword is enchanted with, further signifying the shadow’s allegiance to the Two Fingers."

So the fingers have two sects of assassins? Sorry, can't buy that, this isn't Picard territory. I interpret that to mean the beasts given by the fingers to the Empyreans, namely Blaidd and Maliketh, and while they are similar, they are quite distinct. Remember that Maliketh also uses destined death, but only at a specific time.

Talk (after Ranni’s quest)

Originally posted by Iji:

My purpose is nearing its end. I've served Lady Ranni for as long as I can remember...It has been a long and wondrous journey. Now Lady Ranni is in your hands. I pray that you serve her well, unto the very end.

Iji knows his own end is coming.

Why is Blaidd in the Evergaol?

Originally posted by Iji:

I presume you've spoken with Blaidd? Very well. There is something you should know. The Two Fingers gave Blaidd to Lady Ranni, as a faithful follower. Her very shadow, incapable of treachery. But if Lady Ranni, as an Empyrean, reists being an instrument of the Two Fingers, the shadow will go mad, transforming from a follower into a horrid curse. But such is his destiny. In such matters, Blaidd's own thoughts hold no weight. It pains me so, but he must be neutralised. For Lady Ranni's sake.

Iji is aware that Blaidd is programmed to do the will of the Fingers, which will result in the need to kill him. This is why Iji put Blaidd in the evergaol, to try and 'save' him.

Blaidd’s Death

Originally posted by Iji:

Unthinkable, how could Blaidd… How did he break free from his cell? No, more importantly… Blaidd became a curse that plagued Lady Ranni, yet in madness, gave himself to her. I’ve made a grave misjudgement. And I thought myself a capable war counselor… I’ll catch up with you soon enough, Blaidd. When I do, I only hope you’ll accept my apology.

Iji couldn't predict you'd come along to let him out, so he fails.

Edit: and one last thing, I like Fextra and all, but using their opinions as a source? Not my cuppa. That's literally stuff written by randos, much of which has been wrong at one point or another. "Resembles Blaidd" doesn't come from any in-game source.

[Zeynslanen]

:/

[vamirez]

Originally posted by John Titor:

Originally posted by vamirez:

No, he isn't. Blaidd is not unique - that guy also looks like a wolf-dude or takes this form on purpose here, but it's not Blaidd.
https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Baleful+Shadow

"I turned my back on the Two Fingers and we each have been cursing the other since. The Baleful Shadows... are their assassins."

"Resembles Blaidd the Half-Wolf. They even share the same moveset.

However, the Baleful Shadow's sword is imbued with Destined Death, not the Frost enchantment that Blaidd's sword is enchanted with, further signifying the shadow’s allegiance to the Two Fingers."

So the fingers have two sects of assassins? Sorry, can't buy that, this isn't Picard territory. I interpret that to mean the beasts given by the fingers to the Empyreans, namely Blaidd and Maliketh, and while they are similar, they are quite distinct. Remember that Marika has been captured and Maliketh still has destined death.

Talk (after Ranni’s quest)

Originally posted by Iji:

My purpose is nearing its end. I've served Lady Ranni for as long as I can remember...It has been a long and wondrous journey. Now Lady Ranni is in your hands. I pray that you serve her well, unto the very end.

Iji knows his own end is coming.

Why is Blaidd in the Evergaol?

Originally posted by Iji:

I presume you've spoken with Blaidd? Very well. There is something you should know. The Two Fingers gave Blaidd to Lady Ranni, as a faithful follower. Her very shadow, incapable of treachery. But if Lady Ranni, as an Empyrean, reists being an instrument of the Two Fingers, the shadow will go mad, transforming from a follower into a horrid curse. But such is his destiny. In such matters, Blaidd's own thoughts hold no weight. It pains me so, but he must be neutralised. For Lady Ranni's sake.

Iji is aware that Blaidd is programmed to do the will of the Fingers, which will result in the need to kill him. This is why Iji put Blaidd in the evergaol, to try and 'save' him.

Blaidd’s Death

Originally posted by Iji:

Unthinkable, how could Blaidd… How did he break free from his cell? No, more importantly… Blaidd became a curse that plagued Lady Ranni, yet in madness, gave himself to her. I’ve made a grave misjudgement. And I thought myself a capable war counselor… I’ll catch up with you soon enough, Blaidd. When I do, I only hope you’ll accept my apology.

Iji couldn't predict you'd come along to let him out, so he fails.

Edit: and one last thing, I like Fextra and all, but using their opinions as a source? Not my cuppa. That's literally stuff written by randos, much of which has been wrong at one point or another. "Resembles Blaidd" doesn't come from any in-game source.

After going against the fingers, they sent multiple "baleful shadows" after Ranni. The one down under the earth is the last (she says all that). These are not the same as the Black Knife Assassins who seem to be all women from that Numen race and who were initiated by Marika (now being sent by either the Radagon aspect or the GW itself?).

If Blaidd is imprisoned in the evergaol, how can he be under the Earth attacking you at the same time? This happens whether you freed him or not. It's not him. If freed he will be at Ranni's tower in the end, fighting you there, but with his own sword.

"yet in madness, gave himself to her" - even tho Blaidd did go mad, he didn't go against Ranni. Iji says that. The "grave misjudgement" is Iji misjudging Blaidd and he wants to apologize to him.

About Fextralife - the only Fextralife quote is the one that points out that the Baleful Shadow under the Earth uses a different sword. So, there's really no "ideas by randos" here.

Also look at the Black Wolf Mask: "Relic of an assassin who assumed the guise of Ranni the Witch's loyal shadow. The likeness is striking."