Sleep and Madness need to be nerfed, removed, or etc.

[Tyler McRae]

I'm mostly mentioning the PvP side of it. Neither are balanced. The fact that you can inflict them -during- I-frames is just ridiculous. It basically means the person doing it gets a free hit even if you roll their attacks correctly. The only way I can think to balance them is to make the 'stun' not proc if you get the status while rolling. The frequency of players early-game that use them, on top of frostbite/scarlet rot users in Limgrave, is just... not fun. It makes PvP feel not worth doing until later levels, which has it's own problems (every build is either 1-shot or trash, etc).

[Omastar]

Originally posted by Joe Biren Diaz:

Originally posted by Omastar:

I'd get it if it were the St. trina WA and like, sleep pots only could go through rolls, but the actual swings themselves dealing sleep even if rolled through is extremely tedious to fight against.

And this is coming from someone who uses dual St. trina swords, and dual vykes, in PvP xD

So your the problem… maybe just be the change you want to see?

I don't main them, I just used them for maybe 25 hours before getting extremely bored (I main the UGS)

Me not using them isn't the "change I want to see", as it's not fixing the issue just because a few less people use them, it'd still be there.

[Holografix]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Originally posted by Holografix:

If you read the Madness spell descriptions...only works on the Tarnished

Yes, we all know that, that's not the point. The point being it needs to serve some gameplay purpose PvE, because in terms of damage almost anything else is better, and everything is immune to madness. Aside from RP, there is absolutely no reason to use it.

Also the fact that there are numerous humanoid enemies, and rats affected by madness proves that apparently tarnished are not the only ones affected by it.

the point is that based on description it is serving gameplay as intended.

wishing for more uses isn't a reason to change an item or spell.

[Holografix]

Originally posted by Omastar:

Originally posted by Holografix:

you cannot roll through gas, therefore sleep working as intended. no nerf needed.

I'd get it if it were the St. trina WA and like, sleep pots only could go through rolls, but the actual swings themselves dealing sleep even if rolled through is extremely tedious to fight against.

And this is coming from someone who uses dual St. trina swords, and dual vykes, in PvP xD

Tedium is not a reason to change an item or spell. A sleep sword swing spreading sleep gas makes sense as it is a magical sword. working as intended.

[lithops]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Madness needs to be buffed. I could care less about PvP, its useless in PvE. It doesn't do anything to any PvE enemy, literally. The only thing in the entire game affected by madness buildup as far as I've seen are NPC invaders (IE mockup PvP). Its too niche, not worth the trouble of making a build around.

This one is saying actual truth. I can argu8e about sleep because foreskin motherf@ckers, but madness it totally pointless, npc invaders and Ofnir is not an excuse for this mess, cuz they are braindead easy.

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by Holografix:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Also the fact that there are numerous humanoid enemies, and rats affected by madness proves that apparently tarnished are not the only ones affected by it.

the point is that based on description it is serving gameplay as intended.

wishing for more uses isn't a reason to change an item or spell.

And I already pointed out what's wrong with that. Just gonna leave it up there in bold in case you decide to actually read it this time

[Holografix]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Originally posted by Holografix:

the point is that based on description it is serving gameplay as intended.

wishing for more uses isn't a reason to change an item or spell.

And I already pointed out what's wrong with that. Just gonna leave it up there in bold in case you decide to actually read it this time

Madness originates with the Nomad merchant people. Those are the humanoids. There are other humanoids (giants) but you can imagine that the Nomads have harnessed the madness just like a player character.

Rats eat the Eye of Yergough, that's why they have madness.

Therefore, no need to nerf madness based on lore. It is working as intended.

[Omastar]

Originally posted by Holografix:

Originally posted by Omastar:

I'd get it if it were the St. trina WA and like, sleep pots only could go through rolls, but the actual swings themselves dealing sleep even if rolled through is extremely tedious to fight against.

And this is coming from someone who uses dual St. trina swords, and dual vykes, in PvP xD

Tedium is not a reason to change an item or spell. A sleep sword swing spreading sleep gas makes sense as it is a magical sword. working as intended.

It makes it so you just pull out a long range pokey weapon, stay EXTREMELY passive, and poke when you're perfectly in range, otherwise you get killed, and on high latency, no amount of distance will save you even.

The weapon art spreads sleep gas, it has decent buildup, and like I said - I'd understand the gas itself proccing through rolls, same with sleep pots, but the actual swings being the way they are, makes it so dodging doesn't even work, you just get put to sleep with minimal chances of avoiding it (have to equip the talisman, which is fine, and you also have to create distance constantly to use a sleep bolus, which against such fast weapons, is very difficult during duels especially), after using them for a bit - it's definitely way too strong if there's any latency involved.

Fight begins, opponent rolls through my swings to avoid damage = they get put to sleep for a free hit, which applies more sleep, and EVEN THOUGH they roll through it all perfectly, they're under constant pressure regardless (can also swap to a different weapon quickly, then do a weapon skill, taking out most of their health in the time they're asleep)

[the fakir]

Yes, buff frenzy, it will be good for everyone.

[Holografix]

Originally posted by Omastar:

Originally posted by Holografix:

Tedium is not a reason to change an item or spell. A sleep sword swing spreading sleep gas makes sense as it is a magical sword. working as intended.

It makes it so you just pull out a long range pokey weapon, stay EXTREMELY passive, and poke when you're perfectly in range, otherwise you get killed, and on high latency, no amount of distance will save you even.

The weapon art spreads sleep gas, it has decent buildup, and like I said - I'd understand the gas itself proccing through rolls, same with sleep pots, but the actual swings being the way they are, makes it so dodging doesn't even work, you just get put to sleep with minimal chances of avoiding it (have to equip the talisman, which is fine, and you also have to create distance constantly to use a sleep bolus, which against such fast weapons, is very difficult during duels especially), after using them for a bit - it's definitely way too strong if there's any latency involved.

Fight begins, opponent rolls through my swings to avoid damage = they get put to sleep for a free hit, which applies more sleep, and EVEN THOUGH they roll through it all perfectly, they're under constant pressure regardless (can also swap to a different weapon quickly, then do a weapon skill, taking out most of their health in the time they're asleep)

is sleep the new "bleed is too OP" meme?

[DayLight1943]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Madness needs to be buffed. I could care less about PvP, its useless in PvE. It doesn't do anything to any PvE enemy, literally. The only thing in the entire game affected by madness buildup as far as I've seen are NPC invaders (IE mockup PvP). Its too niche, not worth the trouble of making a build around.

madness will likely never be buffed in this way - they would have to add entirely new animations for all the enemies to be effected by madness, and the fp drain aspect of it couldnt be a thing - pve enemies do not have fp. the main use of madness is the longer stun animation vs sleep and the fp drain. the sleep animation on most pve is very long, its only in pvp where small changes in duration make a significant difference, and since enemies dont have fp, it would pretty much just be a worse version of sleep.

the entire madness thing is directed at pvp - there are always weapons and spells that are only useful or mainly useful in pvp, and that's ok - there are plenty of items and spells that can only be used in pve, its ok to have some pvp focused stuff too.

madness only effects tarnished - so any tarnished npcs you might aggro, or gideon ofnir can also be effected by madness. id guess there is some kind of lore reasoning at play here - the frenzied flame seems to want to corrupt tarnished specifically, and is kind of a mirror image of the greater will, which is the source for the guidance of grace that only tarnished can see, so there is likely something similar going on with the frenzied flame that is specific to tarnished.

Originally posted by Holografix:

Originally posted by Omastar:

I'd get it if it were the St. trina WA and like, sleep pots only could go through rolls, but the actual swings themselves dealing sleep even if rolled through is extremely tedious to fight against.

And this is coming from someone who uses dual St. trina swords, and dual vykes, in PvP xD

Tedium is not a reason to change an item or spell. A sleep sword swing spreading sleep gas makes sense as it is a magical sword. working as intended.

tedium is not why status proc on rolls needs to be removed, it needs to be removed because it punishes skill and rewards spam. if my rolls are timed properly, and i roll on reaction to attacks, my skill needs to be rewarded by not taking damage. if i am using a status weapon and miss an attack from neutral or a rollcatch, i should not be rewarded with status buildup for mistiming my attack or being to easily readable. lots of things about dodge rolls dont make sense - you can dodge straight thru a laser beam or pillar of fire. its not really reasonable to say "oh you cant dodge sleep mist because its mist" in a game where you can roll dodge thru giant waves of energy or fire.

[Ittrix]

I don't see the problem with them proccing through rolls. It's literally free i-frames all the time on demand. You want it to protect you from literally Everything? Naw man. Naaw.

[Omastar]

Originally posted by Holografix:

Originally posted by Omastar:

It makes it so you just pull out a long range pokey weapon, stay EXTREMELY passive, and poke when you're perfectly in range, otherwise you get killed, and on high latency, no amount of distance will save you even.

The weapon art spreads sleep gas, it has decent buildup, and like I said - I'd understand the gas itself proccing through rolls, same with sleep pots, but the actual swings being the way they are, makes it so dodging doesn't even work, you just get put to sleep with minimal chances of avoiding it (have to equip the talisman, which is fine, and you also have to create distance constantly to use a sleep bolus, which against such fast weapons, is very difficult during duels especially), after using them for a bit - it's definitely way too strong if there's any latency involved.

Fight begins, opponent rolls through my swings to avoid damage = they get put to sleep for a free hit, which applies more sleep, and EVEN THOUGH they roll through it all perfectly, they're under constant pressure regardless (can also swap to a different weapon quickly, then do a weapon skill, taking out most of their health in the time they're asleep)

is sleep the new "bleed is too OP" meme?

Sleep isn't the top offender, bleed itself isn't even the most broken thing imo (mostly seppuku that's the issue with bleed), just because it's not the most broken thing, doesn't mean it couldn't use a change, have you fought against dual trina swords? how much PvP time do you have?

[jinath715]

Maddness was already nerfed into oblivion.
It doesn't affect a single boss in the game.
Sleep is only useful in one boss fight.

ps: no one cares about pvp in this game.

[League of Legends]

Originally posted by jinath715:

Maddness was already nerfed into oblivion.
It doesn't affect a single boss in the game.
Sleep is only useful in one boss fight.

ps: no one cares about pvp in this game.

Obviously you haven’t fought orenstein and smough at lvl 50 by the boilprawn shack, then you’d change your mind

[Nephew Sam]

maybe unequip your soreseals and level vigor