Sleep and Madness need to be nerfed, removed, or etc.

[Tyler McRae]

I'm mostly mentioning the PvP side of it. Neither are balanced. The fact that you can inflict them -during- I-frames is just ridiculous. It basically means the person doing it gets a free hit even if you roll their attacks correctly. The only way I can think to balance them is to make the 'stun' not proc if you get the status while rolling. The frequency of players early-game that use them, on top of frostbite/scarlet rot users in Limgrave, is just... not fun. It makes PvP feel not worth doing until later levels, which has it's own problems (every build is either 1-shot or trash, etc).

[Omastar]

It shouldn't proc through rolls, I agree, makes dual St. trinas and dual vykes extremely oppressive on medium to high lat.

[Tyler McRae]

Originally posted by Omastar:

It shouldn't proc through rolls, I agree, makes dual St. trinas and dual vykes extremely oppressive on medium to high lat.

Exactly. The only way I managed to kill the last invader I had who used dual Trina's was by simply playing -ultra- defensively, using a single weapon that was able to break his poise and slowly chip his health away with single slashes and frostbite. I had to cheese just to kill him. That should not be how the game balances. It's... not fun.

[Sabaithal]

Madness needs to be buffed. I could care less about PvP, its useless in PvE. It doesn't do anything to any PvE enemy, literally. The only thing in the entire game affected by madness buildup as far as I've seen are NPC invaders (IE mockup PvP). Its too niche, not worth the trouble of making a build around.

[Tyler McRae]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Madness needs to be buffed. I could care less about PvP, its useless in PvE. It doesn't do anything to any PvE enemy, literally. The only thing in the entire game affected by madness buildup as far as I've seen are NPC invaders (IE mockup PvP). Its too niche, not worth the trouble of making a build around.

I do think Sleep and Madness need to have ways of affecting in-game enemies, yes. Which makes it even more obvious that the status is specifically designed for PvP.

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by Big Booty Otter:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Madness needs to be buffed. I could care less about PvP, its useless in PvE. It doesn't do anything to any PvE enemy, literally. The only thing in the entire game affected by madness buildup as far as I've seen are NPC invaders (IE mockup PvP). Its too niche, not worth the trouble of making a build around.

I do think Sleep and Madness need to have ways of affecting in-game enemies, yes. Which makes it even more obvious that the status is specifically designed for PvP.

Well on the subject of sleep St trinia's torch is actually a decent weapon for that. It doesn't even do regular damage either, making it perfect for pacifist/passive aggressivist runs.

[Señor Brown]

Originally posted by Big Booty Otter:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Madness needs to be buffed. I could care less about PvP, its useless in PvE. It doesn't do anything to any PvE enemy, literally. The only thing in the entire game affected by madness buildup as far as I've seen are NPC invaders (IE mockup PvP). Its too niche, not worth the trouble of making a build around.

I do think Sleep and Madness need to have ways of affecting in-game enemies, yes. Which makes it even more obvious that the status is specifically designed for PvP.

Sleep is pretty broken for PvE, though. Trolls can be slept with a single light attack from either the sword or the torch of St. Trina. Just one. And a lot of enemies can be slept for 60 seconds and be critically hit during that time.

I agree on Madness, but Sleep is actually the opposite in terms of PvE.

[Hammer_Squirrel]

Originally posted by Big Booty Otter:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Madness needs to be buffed. I could care less about PvP, its useless in PvE. It doesn't do anything to any PvE enemy, literally. The only thing in the entire game affected by madness buildup as far as I've seen are NPC invaders (IE mockup PvP). Its too niche, not worth the trouble of making a build around.

I do think Sleep and Madness need to have ways of affecting in-game enemies, yes. Which makes it even more obvious that the status is specifically designed for PvP.

Sleep is quite good in PvE. Lots of tough enemies like Runebears are vulnerable to it and even enemies like Knights that don’t take a nap on the ground will be dazed for long enough to get in a backstab. Honestly I think if they made it stronger it would be way too overpowered.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Madness needs to be buffed. I could care less about PvP, its useless in PvE. It doesn't do anything to any PvE enemy, literally. The only thing in the entire game affected by madness buildup as far as I've seen are NPC invaders (IE mockup PvP). Its too niche, not worth the trouble of making a build around.

If anything thats more about changing it to have some effect on PvE enemies.

For starters, Inescapable Frenzy should work on all Humanoid enemies like Sacred Flame did in DS3.

I dunno what the effect could be though, maybe just cause the enemy stance to break, allowing a riposte.

[Holografix]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Madness needs to be buffed. I could care less about PvP, its useless in PvE. It doesn't do anything to any PvE enemy, literally. The only thing in the entire game affected by madness buildup as far as I've seen are NPC invaders (IE mockup PvP). Its too niche, not worth the trouble of making a build around.

If you read the Madness spell descriptions...only works on the Tarnished

[Holografix]

Originally posted by Omastar:

It shouldn't proc through rolls, I agree, makes dual St. trinas and dual vykes extremely oppressive on medium to high lat.

you cannot roll through gas, therefore sleep working as intended. no nerf needed.

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by Holografix:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Madness needs to be buffed. I could care less about PvP, its useless in PvE. It doesn't do anything to any PvE enemy, literally. The only thing in the entire game affected by madness buildup as far as I've seen are NPC invaders (IE mockup PvP). Its too niche, not worth the trouble of making a build around.

If you read the Madness spell descriptions...only works on the Tarnished

Yes, we all know that, that's not the point. The point being it needs to serve some gameplay purpose PvE, because in terms of damage almost anything else is better, and everything is immune to madness. Aside from RP, there is absolutely no reason to use it.

Also the fact that there are numerous humanoid enemies, and rats affected by madness proves that apparently tarnished are not the only ones affected by it.

[Omastar]

Originally posted by Holografix:

Originally posted by Omastar:

It shouldn't proc through rolls, I agree, makes dual St. trinas and dual vykes extremely oppressive on medium to high lat.

you cannot roll through gas, therefore sleep working as intended. no nerf needed.

I'd get it if it were the St. trina WA and like, sleep pots only could go through rolls, but the actual swings themselves dealing sleep even if rolled through is extremely tedious to fight against.

And this is coming from someone who uses dual St. trina swords, and dual vykes, in PvP xD

[League of Legends]

Flame of frenzy the easiest spell of those to acquire I find pretty strong… even if you can’t build up madness, it does high fire dmg on even small enemies with a great stagger, just for simple pve build and pvp wise it’s broken enough as is. Sleep on the other hand has a few implications in pvp but yes, dual st. Trina’s is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ cheesy and you can’t roll through it’s effect like bleed or frostbite (frostbite dmg). Just a nerf to the amount those swords do in pvp would be nice but idk how they’d do that. I do wish madness had more pve uses though. I only found madness really useful against bernhal in faram on my underlevled builds… but ye only npc tarnished like enemies…

[League of Legends]

Originally posted by Omastar:

Originally posted by Holografix:

you cannot roll through gas, therefore sleep working as intended. no nerf needed.

I'd get it if it were the St. trina WA and like, sleep pots only could go through rolls, but the actual swings themselves dealing sleep even if rolled through is extremely tedious to fight against.

And this is coming from someone who uses dual St. trina swords, and dual vykes, in PvP xD

So your the problem… maybe just be the change you want to see?

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by Joe Biren Diaz:

Flame of frenzy the easiest spell of those to acquire I find pretty strong… even if you can’t build up madness, it does high fire dmg on even small enemies with a great stagger, just for simple pve build and pvp wise it’s broken enough as is.

Sure, but a single blackflame fireball (a very basic spell) can insta-kill most trash mobs at extremely low cost, and it tracks a bit so its hard to miss.

Most fire spells are more effective for their purposes than FoF against mobs.