Ancient Dragons: How Were They Meant To Be Fought?

[ressenmacher]

Introduction:

This post is an analysis designed to try and answer a question that ate at me over the course of my first playthrough: are Ancient Dragon model enemies meant to be fought by standing in front of them and targeting mostly the head, or were you supposed to run under them and mostly attack their legs and tail? This question arose because, while I found that the fights were much easier when I ran under them, I also felt that I wasn’t engaging with much of the moveset and that the dragon was constantly trying and failing to reposition and get me out from under it. To this end, I analyzed the movesets of every Ancient Dragon in the game (see the updated attack pattern tables on the wiki pages for specifics), and found evidence for staying in front being the intended strategy, for staying behind being the intended strategy, and for the Faram Azula Dragons being a very weird set of enemies. This post is my observations collected, supported, and used to draw my conclusion; note that “n.f.” stands for “no footage” and means that, while I personally verified that point, I couldn’t find footage of it online.

Note also that “Ancient Dragon” is being used here to refer to all enemies which share the basic model and moveset used by Lansseax. This means that my analysis covers Ancient Dragon Lansseax[eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com], Lichdragon Fortissax[eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com], and the Faram Azula Dragons[eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com], but NOT Dragonlord Placidusax[eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com] because, despite lore-wise being a type of Ancient Dragon, he uses a different base rig and has a substantially different fight due to that.

Evidence for Head-Centric Intent:

To begin with, Ancient Dragons have a head weakspot that causes them to take 2x the standard damage. Flying Dragons and Magma Wyrms, both fights clearly meant to be approached at least partially through specifically targeting the head, have only a 1.5x damage multiplier. Thus, it would appear that the game intends that you hit the head even moreso than in those engagements.

Furthermore, large parts of the moveset seem designed to allow a damage window on the head. Lightning summoning (0:45) and the double bite (0:56) both allow a fully charged heavy attack from most weapon classes. Furthermore, all of the standing glaive attacks + the FA Azula dragon’s unique vertical one allow a jumping attack or sprinting heavy attack on the head ((glaive smash 1:23, retreating glaive sweep 5:55, n.f. aerial glaive). The vertical slam used as a gap closer or combo finisher also has a window of opportunity with proper positioning (0:55), and though it is very tight there is a small opening to punish a rearing firebreath with a running attack (n.f.).

Thus far, the game has incentivized the player to attack the head by offering a damage reward and opportunities to use it. It also makes use of sticks, behaviors that punish the player for or discourage them from attacking something other than the head.

Standing underneath an Ancient Dragon will often prompt either a double-handed slam (with lightning trails where applicable) or a series of wing beats. Both of these attacks are very difficult to dodge when positioned underneath the dragon due to their wide AoE and closely consecutive hitboxes, and both inflict very heavy knockback likely to throw the player out from under the dragon.

Additionally, Ancient Dragons will move to try and face the player if they are not in front of them. Standing to the sides prompts turning swipes, to the rear a turning tailswipe, and underneath repositioning flight (sometimes with fire). Additionally, running under Lannseax or the first Greater Faram Azula Dragon will cause them to use their less punishable retreating glaive to reposition in front of you rather than the highly punishable slam. Such repositioning naturally pushes the player into being positioned to strike at the head.

Finally, there is one mechanic very clear in its discouragement. Fortissax has an electrical aura about himself which will periodically summon lightning bolts to strike players who stand under him. This is made more effective by how it overlaps with Fortissax’s signature lightning bolts; players standing under him may have the summoned lightning bolt coincide with his explosive slams such that damage becomes unavoidable.

Evidence for Body Centric Intent:

Based on the foregoing, it appears that Ancient Dragons are clearly meant to be fought with a head-focused playstyle. A number of features, however, oppose this take.

First, while Ancient Dragons do have an enormous head weakspot, they are also incredibly difficult to poise break and their heads are small and easy to miss in the first place. Even though the head takes double the poise damage compared to the body, its greater inaccessibility tends to balance that out even beyond the fact that the necessary poise damage for a stagger on either target is near unreachably high. Consider this fight; despite the near-constant spamming of a colossal weapon WA, (and one that does not miss because it has immense range and no travel time), the stagger occurs only once Fortissax has lost about 2/3rds of his HP and taken four Gravity Bolts and two Glintblade Phalanxes right on the noggin within the span of 23 seconds. Unless you are specifically fishing for it using a strategy like spamming Flame of the Redmanes or Gravity Bolt, it is vanishingly unlikely that you will stagger an Ancient Dragon at all. Thus, Ancient Dragons lack the multiplicative weakspot increase, long attack window, and huge riposte damage that make fighting Flying Dragons and to a lesser extent Wyrms from the front so appealing.

Beyond this issue, Ancient Dragons have melee combos that are very unforgiving and rather complex to avoid. Their most common one, the left slam -> left backhand -> right swipe -> vert. slam, requires up to seven consecutive rolls to dodge through every attack and then the associated lightning trail if you try to roll backward and stay in front of their heads. If you roll inwards, however, you need only one or two dodges. This is further compounded by the fact that the commonly used left slam -> left backhand will deal unavoidable damage (n.f.) with the second attack if you are hit by the lightning trail of the first (you can roll the physical hit but won’t recover in time to roll the electricity, or you can just take the physical hit and be in knockdown immunity for the electricity). Even the individual hits in the combo can be highly unforgiving; as an example this player correctly times a roll through the slam of the slam -> swipe combo (0:38), but because they rolled late they do not recover in time to roll again and take unavoidable damage from the lightning trail. The vertical slam also requires you to position out in front and to the left of the strike or else you’ll take unavoidable damage from the lightning trail as you’re in your roll’s recovery. These combos change substantially in the second phase, too, with old combo-enders suddenly gaining followups; it’s much easier to dodge many attacks safely by simply rolling into the dragon, and not away like the head-centered fighting style demands.

Add to this that many attacks have much better punish windows or only have punish windows if you run under the dragon (which is why RL 1 strategies focus the legs even on Fortissax). All melee combos except for the double bite are better punished by anklebiting, lightning summoning is so long with the head out of reach for so much of it that it’s more efficient to just whack at the frontlegs, and most clearly the rearing firebreath can be punished very safely (and gives counter damage on an enemy already weirdly weak to thrust damage despite being made of rock) by running under the dragon and using charged attacks as opposed to the paltry running attack at great risk you can get from the front.

Finally, while it’s true that the dragons will often try to move away from and face you, it’s also true that some aspects of their behavior seem designed to get you to move under them. Ancient Dragons will keep walking forwards at you until you are underneath their head, which is closer than the minimum distance is needed to see what they’re doing and fight them from the front. As a result, trying to aim for the head results in constant backpedaling through the whole fight. Additionally, the divebomb attack used by Fortissax and the two Greater Faram Azula Dragons positions the player directly underneath them as it finishes. Even if you’re trying to aim for the head, you will often end up under the dragon anyways.

My Conclusion:

I suspect strongly that Ancient Dragons were intended to be fought from the front, with players focusing on targeting their heads in a similar fashion to Flying Dragons. This is not, however, the easiest or most effective method of fighting any of them except perhaps Fortissax at the moment due to what I believe are a mixture of development oversights and potentially outright bugs.

To preface my conclusions, let me state that these enemies clearly had some development issues and an overall lack of polish applied. They are very buggy; Lansseax currently has a bug where she takes damage with each leashing teleport she undergoes (n.f.), the Faram Azula Dragons often fail to properly animate when they try to teleport away in response to an out of reach player, all of them except for Fortissax (as he’s fought in a completely flat area) frequently have issues with becoming [/url]stuck[/url] in falling animations on terrain after sliding down it or landing awkwardly from an aerial attack, the second Lesser Faram Azula Dragon will stay present and aggroed and do nothing if you wake it up and run away from it (unlike every other Faram Azula Dragon except the first, which teleport away if you leave their reachable area) (n.f.), the second Greater Faram Azula Dragon AI freeze, etc etc etc.

To begin with, the two major moveset patterns that encourage players to naturally move into and under the dragon are how difficult it is to evade frontal claw swipes and how the dragons will walk very far forwards when targeting you. The former also has some questionable design decisions in how damage can become unavoidable very easily, which suggests to me that this may be an unintentional effect of the claw swipe patterns being overtuned (especially because the lightning trails that cause the problem are an overlay added to the attacks and not present on some dragons rather than something baked into the fundamental moveset). The enemy walking too far forward obviously feels like some kind of error or lack of polish in how their AI works, similar to how Flying Dragons heavily suffer from how strongly which attack they use is affected by miniscule differences in player positioning. I don’t think these are intentional. The same can also be said of their enormous resistance to being staggered; it feels like a typo or oversight that they functionally do not stagger when every other dragon in the entire game, including Placidusax (lore wise a type of Ancient Dragon) staggers noticeably easily.

Additionally, Ancient Dragons have more, and more frequently use, attacks designed to get the player out from under them or behind them than they use any attack that encourages the player to move under them., The presence and clear goal of these attacks, and their obvious parallels to the spin-bites and tail swipes of Flying Dragons, further reinforce the comparison.

Beyond this, every Ancient Dragon encountered in an area where it is not feasibly large enough to stay in front of them is significantly weakened. The Lesser Faram Azula Dragons do not spawn lightning trails (especially impactful on their big “get out from under me!” slam, as it makes it less punishing and easier to entirely avoid) and do not use any of the large AoEs of the downwards lightning bolts. Some are encountered sleeping and can be attacked early for a 1.5x damage boost, and additionally are easily bypassed or retreated from if the fight goes poorly. And the second Greater Faram Azula Dragon fought in a very small area begins the fight with only a tiny fraction of its full health. This pervasive design philosophy suggests to me that FROM considered the necessity of fighting the dragons from underneath in these encounters more difficult than standing in front, and adjusted the fights away from the base intent to provide for that.

Finally, FROM has a noticeably poor track record in making large enemies with weakspots and a moveset clearly designed to get you to engage with those weakspots from being in many cases easier to defeat through anklebiting. The second phase of Fire Giant, all Flying Dragons except Borealis and Ezykes, and Stone Golems with leg armor provide very clear examples of this in Elden Ring, while Ebrietas, Ancient Wyvern (mob version), Bloodletting Beast, etc. provide ones from other games in the series. Based on this longstanding trend, I think the fact that some attacks, particularly the rearing firebreath and lightning summon, are so much more exploitable if you avoid the head is a balance oversight similar to how effective standing in Ebri’s ass(tentacle?)crack and wailing on her was rather than an intended aspect of the fight.

Based on these factors, I conclude that the Ancient Dragons were supposed to be fought by hitting them in the head and FROM just bungled it.

[Dr.Abscondus]

TLDR. Answer is heat seeking missile though.

[ressenmacher]

Dr.Abscondus の投稿を引用：

TLDR.

ressenmacher の投稿を引用：

Based on these factors, I conclude that the Ancient Dragons were supposed to be fought by hitting them in the head and FROM just bungled it.

You're right about the missiles, tho; as that stagger clip shows, anything that locks onto their heads and can course-correct some just rips them to shreds.

[John Titor]

You fight the past with the future, so obviously energy weapons that haven't been invented yet.

[Yian Yan]

Huh. I thought ancient dragons didn't have any head weakspot at all. Was quite disappointed considering how rewarding head based combat was on others (other than Ekzykes and Borealis due to other reasons). The few times I bothered attacking the head the damage numbers seemed the same as the body. Must've been clipping the body by mistake. I'll have to try head assault next time.

[Nephew Sam]

this is the longest essay ive ever seen in my life

[ressenmacher]

Yian Yan の投稿を引用：

Huh. I thought ancient dragons didn't have any head weakspot at all. Was quite disappointed considering how rewarding head based combat was on others (other than Ekzykes and Borealis due to other reasons). The few times I bothered attacking the head the damage numbers seemed the same as the body. Must've been clipping the body by mistake. I'll have to try head assault next time.

I definitely recommend giving it a try; it's tougher, but you engage with the moveset much more and get to do some cool stuff like timing a charged heavy while the dragon is still biting.

As for the head issues, you may have been hitting too far back. With all dragons, it's only like the front two thirds or so of the head that seems to count for the weakspot.

[SpottedHare]

They want you to go for the head, but they want you to get kill (hopefully alot) so they made going for the head rather dangerous. Ironically this really makes going to the back much safer, easier, less skill and attention intensive.

[cridus]

Ahah rotten breath goes brrrr

[DragonSoundxSG]

Tl:DR get under dem britches

[Sabaithal]

Yeah, I'm just gonna go under them and hack at their ankles thanks. Staying in front of them has never resulted in any good outcome.

[SleepyEyez]

It's a mix of positioning.

Fortissax died in 5 melee hits (2 on the head & 3 on the hind leg @ rune level 72 I think).
Speedrunner: E1uM4y
Speedrun Category: RegionLock with Wrong Warp
Time Index: 1:22:27
https://youtu.be/hZB1YrPePJw?t=4947

Fortissax died in 6 melee hits (3 on the head, 2 on the front leg, & 1 on the hind leg @ rune level 1).
Speedrunner: Distortion2
Speedrun Category: RL1 Glitchless
Time Index: 2:22:17
https://youtu.be/K2Vdj2VDH08?t=8537

Distortion2 should have a newer video soon on his channel since he just broke the WR in RegionLock category few hours ago.

Edit: Speedrun Categories

[Señor Brown]

ressenmacher の投稿を引用：

Introduction:

...

Based on these factors, I conclude that the Ancient Dragons were supposed to be fought by hitting them in the head and FROM just bungled it.

The lack of target lock for the legs certainly supports that conclusion. It reminds me of the Death Rite Birds, where locking on to the head as a melee character can really disorient you and leave you vulnerable for any attacks coming off-camera. So as a step-up from the flying dragons, melee are limited to either lock-on for the spectacle or toggling the targeting on and off to actually hit them.

As for the head, the damage bonus may coincidentally favor ranged classes. The lowest absorptions for elemental damage types is only 5% higher than the worst of the physical damage types. And bows fall under thrust, which is only 10% damage absorption. It makes the head a juicy and more readily available target for players effective at distance. Melee loses out again.

[SHOCKNUTZ]

nah

[Flori281]

this is a fine analysis and I kinda reached the same conclusion in my first playthrough. just decided i would go for consistent dps over waiting for pretty annoying punish windows

[ressenmacher]

Señor Brown の投稿を引用：

The lack of target lock for the legs certainly supports that conclusion. It reminds me of the Death Rite Birds, where locking on to the head as a melee character can really disorient you and leave you vulnerable for any attacks coming off-camera. So as a step-up from the flying dragons, melee are limited to either lock-on for the spectacle or toggling the targeting on and off to actually hit them.

That;s a very good point; I hadn't considered that the reduced lock on points were themselves an indicator-though I do think it's good to note that we've had dragon fights without a headsniping playstyle where the legs still weren't lock-points (Sinh, Kalameet, AD I think?)

Señor Brown の投稿を引用：

As for the head, the damage bonus may coincidentally favor ranged classes. The lowest absorptions for elemental damage types is only 5% higher than the worst of the physical damage types. And bows fall under thrust, which is only 10% damage absorption. It makes the head a juicy and more readily available target for players effective at distance. Melee loses out again.

Very true, especially with how self-guided spells really help mitigate the issue of landing hits in the first place.

I also have no ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ clue why these dragons are so weak to thrust. By all logic it should be blunt, but not, pokey sticks are their weakness (especially with how often you can hit them as they attack for even more damage via counter state).

SleepyEyez の投稿を引用：

It's a mix of positioning.

Fortissax died in 5 melee hits (2 on the head & 3 on the hind leg @ rune level 72 I think).
Speedrunner: E1uM4y
Speedrun Category: RegionLock with Wrong Warp
Time Index: 1:22:27
https://youtu.be/hZB1YrPePJw?t=4947

Fortissax died in 6 melee hits (3 on the head, 2 on the front leg, & 1 on the hind leg @ rune level 1).
Speedrunner: Distortion2
Speedrun Category: RL1 Glitchless
Time Index: 2:22:17
https://youtu.be/K2Vdj2VDH08?t=8537

Distortion2 should have a newer video soon on his channel since he just broke the WR in RegionLock category few hours ago.

Edit: Speedrun Categories

Huh; you're correct. Distortion is clearly headsniping and the other person is to some extent as well; all of the ones I referenced for the post just had them gunning for the kneecaps.

Perhaps the optimal strategy is weapon size based? These are runs with SHS and BHF, which are big and really benefit from being able to land one big attack on the head. Most of the ones I saw were dual-wielding status ones, so that mgiht make more sense.