Carian enemies are flawed in every way.

[SigilFey]

After nearly 600 hrs. of gameplay, I have to make this criticism:

The design of the *gameplay* of the Carian content is next to rubbish.

The visual design and concept are as amazing as the rest of the game. The rest of it is completely dysfunctional. It's the opposite of what From Software games are supposed to be.

I've played Dark Souls 1 and 2 to completion numerous times (with expansions). Elden Ring is, by far, the best overall title From has ever released...but the design of the enemies in the Carian content is next to trash:

1.) Moongrum, The Carian Knight is the most garbage enemy I've ever seen in a From Software game. I've beaten the stupid "invisible tiger" enemies in DS2's expansion content -- and even that was not as ugly as Moongrum. This enemy is frame-cancelling, input-reading nightmare. (And yes, I know how to cheese him with the elevator. That's EXACTLY opposite of my point.) No enemy in a From Soft. game has ever required this tactic.

2.) The Hands are just pointless nonsense. They ignore hitbox connections...strike the player well outside of animation cycles and hitbox zones...and their overall implementation is trifling at best, and completely contrived game-lengthening crap at worst.

3.) I'm sorry...how does Loretta swing at something on the other side of her horse and hit me in the process? How does her leaping attack strike me while she's leaping over my head and the animation for the swing is four feet to my left or right? (And yes, I have annihilated her in about 30 seconds flat with certain characters, but that DOES NOT cancel the complete rubbish of the other encounters.)

4.) And let's talk about Rennala if using a straight Sorcery / Faith build. The only thing she's susceptible to is straight physical damage and melee. I've clocked that fight on the first run with a couple of characters now, focused on physical damage. There is no option for magic users except to seek out the gravitas spells in Caelid (which characters at that level have no reason or context to be exploring...or to look up tutorials and guides to try to defeat her. There is NOTHING in the game that will allow players using magic/miracle builds to face her meaningfully within the *context of the game itself.*)

What happened here? Where was/is the QA? Where is the design cohesion? Where is the common vision that will bind this to the rest of the game?

It's like this part of the development was not even connected to the rest of the game or even aware of the core tenets of From Software's philosophy.

This entire section, though I love the concept and visual design, is detracting severely from the experience. It's a pile of dung sitting the corner of a lovely, 5-star buffet.

[Eagle Eye Jack]

I felt the same way about the hands, until I realized how easy they are if you just jump behind them; you better have a shield for their first attack, though, because you aren't dodging it with a normal roll.

[Grottowalker]

Point 4 is nothing. Throwing Rocks?


I beat her at RL1 with the Harp bow and venom claws....

[Sabaithal]

Just going to point out
1) Ds1 had an enemy that did exactly this. Crestfallen warrior. No, I'm serious, go back and fight him with a normal weapon right after reaching firelink shrine. He has autoparry and is super aggressive when aggroed. Its extremely difficult to kill him with conventional melee attacks without parrying him yourself.

[SadPlatty©]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Just going to point out
1) Ds1 had an enemy that did exactly this. Crestfallen warrior. No, I'm serious, go back and fight him with a normal weapon right after reaching firelink shrine. He has autoparry and is super aggressive when aggroed. Its extremely difficult to kill him with conventional melee attacks without parrying him yourself.

Which is awfully funny for one that was so down in the dumps to want to live so damn bad *raspy FROM laughter*

Though to OPs points:
1) Fume Knight and Sir Alonne would like to talk about input reading, and one holding the "93% of players died their first time"; though I feel it is just worse here as combat is faster than DS2; those Dragon Knights for example outside the Ancient Dragon seemed quite painful at times with similar behaviors

2)Yeah, they are a bit weird; I would like to know more about what they are supposed to be (grafted or all magical). Would say they are Giants, but we don't see anyone/anything with these types of hands. Plus for them to be "magically inclined" is odd (though I guess it could be the ring is a relic or whatever).

3) IDK, may be some phantom hits; series is familiar with these (and it may be something on their patch radar). I use more hit-and-run tactics mixed with some form of ranged damage dealer (pots/stones/arrows/incants/spells all included) and traditionally try and keep distance from her - so didn't get too much of this myself.

4) There is always going to be one boss that goes against a build. Souls games traditionally didn't make them too nuts, but as these games get pumped out, they will keep tuning the aggro up tiny bits at a time to keep them tough. Example - an all physical dmg build is basically locked into weapon arts and the one spear for Rykard, or you wade through lava.

[balmora pete]

Input reading parries are really fun. I hope there will be a mod that adds more Moongrums behind corners in every single area and equips him with a Miséricorde.

[Martini]

1. Moongrum only parries when he has his shield out; just pressure him when he switches to staff (only need to die once to learn this lesson)

2. I haven't looked at frame data on the hands so I can't comment here. I usually just try to not get greedy with rolling and attack (preferably with fire damage) when they seem tired.

3. Loretta swings with a Halberd, the swing deals damage all the way to the end, as Halberds do.

4. I played a mage (with a tiny amount of dex) for my first playthrough. Now I won't pretend to know about NG+ (since I never do NG+), but her health is small enough to power through with magic and craftables even as a mage.

I know some people dislike bosses with resistances to your build, but I like them a good bit; they encourage more versatile builds (or atleast having backup weapons)

eg: If a boss is resistant to Holy (scales with Faith) then the game lets you use Fire (Also scales with faith, just need to switch out a few things).

[Ulmace]

Originally posted by Martini:

1. Moongrum only parries when he has his shield out; just pressure him when he switches to staff (only need to die once to learn this lesson)

2. I haven't looked at frame data on the hands so I can't comment here. I usually just try to not get greedy with rolling and attack (preferably with fire damage) when they seem tired.

3. Loretta swings with a Halberd, the swing deals damage all the way to the end, as Halberds do.

4. I played a mage (with a tiny amount of dex) for my first playthrough. Now I won't pretend to know about NG+ (since I never do NG+), but her health is small enough to power through with magic and craftables even as a mage.

I know some people dislike bosses with resistances to your build, but I like them a good bit; they encourage more versatile builds (or atleast having backup weapons)

eg: If a boss is resistant to Holy (scales with Faith) then the game lets you use Fire (Also scales with faith, just need to switch out a few things).

massive amount of brainpower required

[Martini]

Originally posted by Ulmace:

Originally posted by Martini:

1. Moongrum only parries when he has his shield out; just pressure him when he switches to staff (only need to die once to learn this lesson)

2. I haven't looked at frame data on the hands so I can't comment here. I usually just try to not get greedy with rolling and attack (preferably with fire damage) when they seem tired.

3. Loretta swings with a Halberd, the swing deals damage all the way to the end, as Halberds do.

4. I played a mage (with a tiny amount of dex) for my first playthrough. Now I won't pretend to know about NG+ (since I never do NG+), but her health is small enough to power through with magic and craftables even as a mage.

I know some people dislike bosses with resistances to your build, but I like them a good bit; they encourage more versatile builds (or atleast having backup weapons)

eg: If a boss is resistant to Holy (scales with Faith) then the game lets you use Fire (Also scales with faith, just need to switch out a few things).

massive amount of brainpower required

I saw you elsewhere in the forum too, could I ask

can anybody parry a two-handed weapon? I don't think I've ever been parried while two-handing my hammer

[Ulmace]

Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by Ulmace:

massive amount of brainpower required

I saw you elsewhere in the forum too, could I ask

can anybody parry a two-handed weapon? I don't think I've ever been parried while two-handing my hammer

2 handed colossal attacks cant be parried, not sure if there are exceptions

[Martini]

Originally posted by Ulmace:

Originally posted by Martini:

I saw you elsewhere in the forum too, could I ask

can anybody parry a two-handed weapon? I don't think I've ever been parried while two-handing my hammer

2 handed colossal attacks cant be parried, not sure if there are exceptions

hmm, I was using the brick hammer (not quite a colossal).


Jump attacks good.

[Ulmace]

Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by Ulmace:

2 handed colossal attacks cant be parried, not sure if there are exceptions

hmm, I was using the brick hammer (not quite a colossal).


Jump attacks good.

there are some other options to not get parried, like whip, flail, shield bash.

[BIG E.]

Well if we are gonna talk about number 4 here i'd like to point out that lakes is the only zone magic users will have problem. On the other hand if you wanna go with holy damage paladin type of build it will be very painful for almost entire game. 90% of enemies in this game has very high holy resistance and the only half decent Faith weapon you get is Blasphemous blade due to fire damage and it is fairly lategame by the time you have it. So yeah i think its fine for magic users to have a single zone they have trouble with.

[vamirez]

Oh, another expert game designer determines the pure badness of enemies in the game ^^ His analysis took 600 hours ^^ Maybe you need to play something else for a change - because starting to hate and over-analyze the same game is a good indicator for that.

Rennala was decidedly easier to beat with my mage than my melee guy.

The knight Moongrum was much easier to beat with melee.

The hands are much easier to beat in melee. You can stagger them quite easily. Also try fire - that works amazingly well - they hate it.

[SoundsOfNight]

Fire > hands

[why are we here? just to suffer?]

Originally posted by SigilFey:

After nearly 600 hrs. of gameplay, I have to make this criticism:

The design of the *gameplay* of the Carian content is next to rubbish.

The visual design and concept are as amazing as the rest of the game. The rest of it is completely dysfunctional. It's the opposite of what From Software games are supposed to be.

I've played Dark Souls 1 and 2 to completion numerous times (with expansions). Elden Ring is, by far, the best overall title From has ever released...but the design of the enemies in the Carian content is next to trash:

1.) Moongrum, The Carian Knight is the most garbage enemy I've ever seen in a From Software game. I've beaten the stupid "invisible tiger" enemies in DS2's expansion content -- and even that was not as ugly as Moongrum. This enemy is frame-cancelling, input-reading nightmare. (And yes, I know how to cheese him with the elevator. That's EXACTLY opposite of my point.) No enemy in a From Soft. game has ever required this tactic.

2.) The Hands are just pointless nonsense. They ignore hitbox connections...strike the player well outside of animation cycles and hitbox zones...and their overall implementation is trifling at best, and completely contrived game-lengthening crap at worst.

3.) I'm sorry...how does Loretta swing at something on the other side of her horse and hit me in the process? How does her leaping attack strike me while she's leaping over my head and the animation for the swing is four feet to my left or right? (And yes, I have annihilated her in about 30 seconds flat with certain characters, but that DOES NOT cancel the complete rubbish of the other encounters.)

4.) And let's talk about Rennala if using a straight Sorcery / Faith build. The only thing she's susceptible to is straight physical damage and melee. I've clocked that fight on the first run with a couple of characters now, focused on physical damage. There is no option for magic users except to seek out the gravitas spells in Caelid (which characters at that level have no reason or context to be exploring...or to look up tutorials and guides to try to defeat her. There is NOTHING in the game that will allow players using magic/miracle builds to face her meaningfully within the *context of the game itself.*)

What happened here? Where was/is the QA? Where is the design cohesion? Where is the common vision that will bind this to the rest of the game?

It's like this part of the development was not even connected to the rest of the game or even aware of the core tenets of From Software's philosophy.

This entire section, though I love the concept and visual design, is detracting severely from the experience. It's a pile of dung sitting the corner of a lovely, 5-star buffet.

Moongrum is..

aye. 100% agree.