Still don't understand how death works.

[Kain]

When Marika removed the rune of death she basically removed the concept of Death from the world. But what happens when you die? It says you return to the Erdtree, but what does it mean? Your souls is purified and then you reincarnate? Do you reincarnate in the same body and it's just heals up, get up and start moving again? There are many mentions of tarnished who died, Millicent, seems to have died.

I'm really not sure, does it mean you merely do not age? Vaati mentions briefly death in one of his first videos on ER lore, but his explanations seems a bit lacking too, like even he doesn't know what the ♥♥♥♥ is going on.

[Kain]

Originally posted by Pyro Penguin:

When Marika first started plotting against the Greater Will, she took the guidance of grace from the tarnished and banished them from the lands between, sending them out to wage wars in other lands and die in her name. Then after Marika was imprisoned in the Erdtree by the Greater Will, she restored the guidance of grace to the tarnished so their souls could return to the Erdtree for resurrection, and then they could retrieve the great runes for Marika.

And yet very few still see the guidance of grace, some tarnished even commenting they never seen it, even if not everyone that is human is a tarnished, we do hunt Tarnished and kill them, seemingly for good if you take the Volcano Manor assignments.

"Tragoth is a famed knight of assistance. Countless Tarnished, facing adversity in the Lands Between, have survived thanks only to the Great Horned One's aid."

And even before they were banished there is nothing that indicates they were immortal or not. I also don't think it was Marika that restored the guidance of grace, I think it was the Greater Will itself. It is possible that there are special tarnished, those who can see the guidance of light, like the player character and that's why he is the only that is truly immortal and that's a gift that can be granted or revoked at will, which is why some characters mention they cannot see the guidance of grace anymore.

It is possible the removal of the concept of death only applies to the Gods which is why Marika removed it from the Elden Ring because only the Elden Ring is powerful enough to affect the Gods, and the reason the rune of death was stolen, wasn't because that was the only way to kill Godwyn and Renna, it is possible that they stole because they could create a special form of death.

[Kain]

"edit: so this would imply that all of the tarnished that claim they lost the guidance of grace can not resurrect anymore"

Yeah, that's what I think as well.

[QuentinTeo]

Originally posted by Xengre:

Originally posted by QuentinTeo:

Dark souls had supporting lore, what are you saying? Every person in the DS saga is unable to properly die because of the First Flame that is going to die. Every time someone dies loses his humanity, becoming hollow. That's why the NPCs become hollow... Or basically all the humanoids NPCs are already hollow

I don't believe they actually did. I could be wrong but from what I understand...

Hollow is a combination of a state of mind into mostly madness (but not always total) and physical decay. Unfortunately, being hollowed is actually quite inconsistent in the Souls franchise and even in DS3 with the Dark Sigil is quite different. Further, there are characters who do permanently die and I've seen none referenced as having died and then revived as "hollowed". Only those fell into a state of hollow due to losing themselves. In contrast, there are definitely NPCs and lore characters, as well as bosses, who have die permanently and do not hollow. Also, your character has hollow states and unhollowed which further disrupts from this as you revive regardless. There is never really a tangible differentiation of alive/dead in hollowing or humanity, just a state of being. This could be just due to the lore being so convoluted even the developers aren't sure, such as some of the questionable nature of Age of Dark or it could be them trying to be intentionally mysterious and loose with lore design.

However, in the end all the humans we were seeing hollowed were due to going mad or a loss of something (loved one, goal, etc.) and while those who had a powerful goal like the blacksmith and MC remained steadfast despite hollowfication. The sigil is the only instance I know of death being involved with hollowing and I suspect it is just from a mechanical point and is never explicitly implicate din the lore (it is unclear if it means death of your humanity or practical death, but it is likely your humanity considering the effects and description despite the mechanic).

Actually, no, the "normal" state of the humans in DS1 is the hollowed version. The sane humans we encounter in the game are undead that are bearing soft humanities with them, allowing them to become something else than hollow. I don't consider DS2 and DS3 lore about this argument, because they changed the mechanics a lot between one game and another and, more importantly, DS1 was meant to be a standalone game at the beginning, so its lore should be interpreted as a stand-alone... Even if it's completed by some discoveries we made in DS3. Anyway, your PG remains "sane" even when hollowing because he's the Chosen Undead, a powerful Undead that can't really go hollow. It's just a game mechanics that was not so well hidden.

About the permadeath of some mobs and NPCs: not everyone is related to a bonfire (like all the black Knights outside the Kiln of the first flame: if you aggro them and try to rest at a bonfire they won't despawn but can attack you even if you're resting), someone is simply distant from its spawn point (Taurus demon and capra demon are in Lost Izalith, while the Moonlight butterfly is in the Duke's archives), someone isn't even undead (iron golem) and the others are simply not undead and too powerful to manage the death (like Gwendolyn, Gwyn, Nito...)

Originally posted by Xengre:

Even the implications of First Flame and Dark age and perpetual alteration is very limited in info and has a lot of interpretations, some of which are suggested to be falsely spread in their world (like the big bang > big crunch end of world then big bang again or the possibly false age of dark claim for humanity which is believed to be dubious, or questions of entities on a higher plane such as the dragons and possibly other unknown entities).

Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not deep into the lore and enjoy it loosely but it doesn't seem to have any lore supporting reasons in Souls games.

Rather than interpreting the rise of the First Flame as a big Bang, think of the flame as something that allows the time flowing. In the intro of DS is stated that before the first flame time didn't existed, but, since there were Erdtree and Dragons, space existed, so they're not related. The flame itself contain time and light: the brighter the flame shine, better is the flowing of time. Now that the flame is fading, time doesn't flow correctly: this allows the Chosen Undeads to encounter even already dead people (like Tarkus or Lloyd) and, every time someone rests at a bonfire, he basically "resets", the world at his state, reviving the Undeads.

[Sabaithal]

Honestly the concept of "death" doesn't seem be consistent with what we comprehend it as. Similar to how "undead" in dark souls did not actually mean a shambling corpse, even though they often look rather gross and gaunt.

What exactly it does mean...I still don't know. Some things just come back when they die, same as they were before. But it seems the more powerful the souls...um...runebearer(?) is in this universe the less likely they are to just come back. Notice how a lot of minibosses, as well as most bosses don't come back.

So my guess is that the...runes of more powerful beings are being pulled into the erdtree even at a distance due to the concentration of runes within them. Whereas weaker beings this doesn't seem to happen unless they are buried within crypts close to erdtree roots (you'll notice there isn't a lot technically "alive" in catacomb areas).

Why this doesn't happen to you...you're tarnished, and therefore exempt from this rule, you respawn at sites of grace, which are not visible to non-tarnished. Why this is...no idea. If I had to guess, probably something done by Marika, given how you can also respawn at statues of her.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by QuentinTeo:

-snip for brevity-

You're assumption is they're original state is hollowed based on some misunderstanding that the age of dark occurred, prior, before first flame in the perpetual cycle but this is actually the first cycle. The dragons ruled prior and there was no prior age of dark. This coming will be the first which is part of why the situation is so mysterious as to what the age of dark truly entails.

This has caused some confusion about the assumption of what it means to be humanity's original state, but in truth humans were originally created at the first flame and then were stable until the fire started to fade. They did not "revert" but became lost.

Dismissing parts of other games kind of realizes my point that the lore is kind of screwed up in some areas and doesn't really fit well with itself. We don't actually know the full details about hollowing and nothing supports the bonfire rebirth mechanic as far as I can see.

Our character can go hollow though. In fact, in one ending our character kills the Firekeeper. In another it becomes THE Lord of Hollows. The Blacksmith and others show signs of hollowing but retain their sanity as well, likely due to immense willpower/drive, which makes sense as hollowfication has never been shown to ever be a result of "death" but rather a sense of loss (usually due to despair such as losing a loved one, situation going bad, madness, etc.). In fact, this is represented with Anri and others.

The attacking when resting has nothing to do with lore implications. They just screwed up some bonfire locations and put no safety on the act of resting. It occurs in Elden Ring, too, and you can be hit while resting or even actually killed while resting. In some areas like the castle where Patches dies (or fake dies) with the Bell Hunter boss the first site of graces at the southern wall regularly sees enemies killing you at it nearly 100% of the time if you rest and sit using it making it not safe to use. There are other similar locations, too. It can be any enemy in DS3 and ER that can do this and is not specific to certain enemies.

This is part of the tricky nature of the flame and the lore. Clearly, something existed and predates the fire. We know dragons are one of those things, but no doubt there is others. The age of darkness can mean a nothingness which is the most direct interpretation and understanding of the lore in story but at the same time several characters, of dubious nature, suggest it is a new age where humanity truly lays claim (ironic...). These claims are... questionable and it is uncertain if this is true. In essence, time may not be totally convoluted but rather is moving forward properly going through cycles but this is the first cycle and also the first flame. Either everything returns to nothingness and then it sprouts from a new flame after the age of the dark ends thus repeating the cycle or there is truth to the age of darkness being a new age of rule and a shift in the nature of the world until the next age. We don't actually know though and the lore intentionally makes this mysterious and impossible to discern.

Honestly, I've still yet to see any hollows created by death or any meaningful explanation for the revival mechanic in Dark Souls.

As for Elden Ring, it seems to be the same and even regularly results in repeat dialogue/events running contrary to the revival/rebirth mechanic (bar dev just being too lazy to account for this lol).

I'm actually a bit surprised there isn't any clear lore reasoning considering Sekiro definitely fit it in. It leaves it up to debate, though even that I feel so far there is little to debate unless there is something I've terribly missed.

As for your MC in each story there are special reasons you are summoned initially but I don't see any supporting evidence or reason for any reoccurring anti-death mechanic and lore.

[Sabaithal]

Concur with Xengre on this one. Hollowing is specifically a being who is bereft of light, OR the dark within is stronger than the light. Physically anyway.

There is also "going hollow" which I suspect just didn't translate over correctly, so we have the two being used in close association, but not quite the same thing. "Going hollow" occurs whenever one loses their sols of light entirely, whether consumed by the dark or simply losing everything, and in doing so losing their sense of self, their purpose, even their memories.

The two are associated because they generally coincide with one another.

There's also other terms in Dark Souls that DO NOT mean what we take them for granted. Humans, for example, means something very specific: A humanoid entity with both souls of light, and the inner darkness present within all humans. Once one loses their souls of light, they become hollow. IE no longer "human". And "humanity" is a dark soul fragment that is specifically associated with humans, giving them power to affect the world in subtle ways otherwise unavailable to other beings.

There's also "undead" which also doesn't mean what we take for granted: A shambling corpse. And undead is any being with the darksign, human, hollow, or otherwise. Simple as that. Strictly speaking, they are NOT a corpse, in spite of their appearances sometimes. Neither are hollows for that matter.

But all of that is Dark Souls specific. Elden Ring is a different lore, whether or not its in the same continuity. The symbolism and metaphorical representations in this game are different from Dark Souls, just as Demons from Demon's Souls are not the same Demons as the ones from Dark Souls.

[bradams]

My understanding of it in the Dark Souls games at least, has always been that it is mostly dictated by the "willpower" of the being. Like an underlying lore theme is that, while you are playing the game, you as the player still have the will to keep fighting through every death, but once you give up, if the world were "meta" and still continuing without you, your character would then become another mindless hollow. Something like that.

Maybe its just some pseudo-meaning kind of thing, like how Kingdom Hearts doesn't actually refer to ones physical heart, despite a physical heart always being the visual representation it uses to show a physical version of a characters entire being. Death is death in a sense, but its also not "true" death? True death perhaps means something TOTALLY different than actually dying does?

I will admit that I am not a huge lore guy with these games. I watch all the videos and try to understand it but it generally goes over my head, but I have always been of the mind that death, as in the permanent kind in these games, occurs when a character is still sane enough to make the choice to cease to exist, or perhaps when upon their death something is taken directly from them, such as with many bosses, their souls. Maybe those are perma-deaths because the player has taken a key aspect of their ability to resurrect, and with certain NPC's that just kinda die, maybe they have given up all hope and simply have made the ultimate choice to pass on? Its all speculation on my part, but I doubt there is a set, clean answer to this question in this game. I would imagine its loose so you as the player can interpret it the way you think fits the story best. Sekiro does try to tie it up in a neat bow, but I don't think the Souls games try as hard to do it that way.

[vamirez]

Originally posted by Xengre:

Originally posted by QuentinTeo:

-snip for brevity-

You're assumption is they're original state is hollowed based on some misunderstanding that the age of dark occurred, prior, before first flame in the perpetual cycle but this is actually the first cycle. The dragons ruled prior and there was no prior age of dark. This coming will be the first which is part of why the situation is so mysterious as to what the age of dark truly entails.

This has caused some confusion about the assumption of what it means to be humanity's original state, but in truth humans were originally created at the first flame and then were stable until the fire started to fade. They did not "revert" but became lost.

Dismissing parts of other games kind of realizes my point that the lore is kind of screwed up in some areas and doesn't really fit well with itself. We don't actually know the full details about hollowing and nothing supports the bonfire rebirth mechanic as far as I can see.

Our character can go hollow though. In fact, in one ending our character kills the Firekeeper. In another it becomes THE Lord of Hollows. The Blacksmith and others show signs of hollowing but retain their sanity as well, likely due to immense willpower/drive, which makes sense as hollowfication has never been shown to ever be a result of "death" but rather a sense of loss (usually due to despair such as losing a loved one, situation going bad, madness, etc.). In fact, this is represented with Anri and others.

The attacking when resting has nothing to do with lore implications. They just screwed up some bonfire locations and put no safety on the act of resting. It occurs in Elden Ring, too, and you can be hit while resting or even actually killed while resting. In some areas like the castle where Patches dies (or fake dies) with the Bell Hunter boss the first site of graces at the southern wall regularly sees enemies killing you at it nearly 100% of the time if you rest and sit using it making it not safe to use. There are other similar locations, too. It can be any enemy in DS3 and ER that can do this and is not specific to certain enemies.

This is part of the tricky nature of the flame and the lore. Clearly, something existed and predates the fire. We know dragons are one of those things, but no doubt there is others. The age of darkness can mean a nothingness which is the most direct interpretation and understanding of the lore in story but at the same time several characters, of dubious nature, suggest it is a new age where humanity truly lays claim (ironic...). These claims are... questionable and it is uncertain if this is true. In essence, time may not be totally convoluted but rather is moving forward properly going through cycles but this is the first cycle and also the first flame. Either everything returns to nothingness and then it sprouts from a new flame after the age of the dark ends thus repeating the cycle or there is truth to the age of darkness being a new age of rule and a shift in the nature of the world until the next age. We don't actually know though and the lore intentionally makes this mysterious and impossible to discern.

Honestly, I've still yet to see any hollows created by death or any meaningful explanation for the revival mechanic in Dark Souls.

As for Elden Ring, it seems to be the same and even regularly results in repeat dialogue/events running contrary to the revival/rebirth mechanic (bar dev just being too lazy to account for this lol).

I'm actually a bit surprised there isn't any clear lore reasoning considering Sekiro definitely fit it in. It leaves it up to debate, though even that I feel so far there is little to debate unless there is something I've terribly missed.

As for your MC in each story there are special reasons you are summoned initially but I don't see any supporting evidence or reason for any reoccurring anti-death mechanic and lore.

When the fire fades, the curse of the undead begins to afflict the humans, i.e. they develop the "dark sign" on their bodies and become undead. The undead do not die. And after a time (different based on individual character or strength of mind) they become "mindless hollows" which prey on other humans or other undead - to eat their souls (note that eating souls is the same process by which the chosen undead becomes powerful enough to restart the world/fire). To solve this problem, the undead are all imprisoned by the still living humans. However, this process cannot be stopped. Eventually everyone will either be dead or afflicted with the curse. When DS 1 starts, there is basically noone left who is alive. An undead knight on an "undead quest" comes to the Northern Undead Asylum and frees you, a fellow undead. He basically gives up after being defeated by the Asylum Demon and gives the player his estus flask and tells them what to do - and he becomes a hollow - when you return later he is there and attacks you.

Bonfires attract the undead and are places where an undead will wake up again after being "killed" - this is established in the lore. The bonfires actually contain bones of the undead. The existence of these fires, and the fire keepers, and also details like the clerics' quest to send undead clerics to try and find the secret of kindling the bonfires all hint at a long period of time that already went by before the start of the game - an era in which the undead first appeared and all this came to be.

Hollowing has affected all the mindless zombies you kill in the game, and it also affects some NPCs - for example the crestfallen warrior when he gives up. It can also affect the player in the meta-sense that he becomes a hollow when he gives up and doesn't finish the game. Looking at completion rates this actually happens to most players ;)

In DS 2 the curse is shown more in-depth and is also accompanied by losing one's memories and self before one finally becomes a soul-eating hollow.

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by vamirez:

When the fire fades, the curse of the undead begins to afflict the humans, i.e. they develop the "dark sign" on their bodies and become undead. The undead do not die. And after a time (different based on individual character or strength of mind) they become "mindless hollows" which prey on other humans or other undead - to eat their souls (note that eating souls is the same process by which the chosen undead becomes powerful enough to restart the world/fire). To solve this problem, the undead are all imprisoned by the still living humans. However, this process cannot be stopped. Eventually everyone will either be dead or afflicted with the curse. When DS 1 starts, there is basically noone left who is alive. An undead knight on an "undead quest" comes to the Northern Undead Asylum and frees you, a fellow undead. He basically gives up after being defeated by the Asylum Demon and gives the player his estus flask and tells them what to do - and he becomes a hollow - when you return later he is there and attacks you.

Bonfires attract the undead and are places where an undead will wake up again after being "killed" - this is established in the lore. The bonfires actually contain bones of the undead. The existence of these fires, and the fire keepers, and also details like the clerics' quest to send undead clerics to try and find the secret of kindling the bonfires all hint at a long period of time that already went by before the start of the game - an era in which the undead first appeared and all this came to be.

Hollowing has affected all the mindless zombies you kill in the game, and it also affects some NPCs - for example the crestfallen warrior when he gives up. It can also affect the player in the meta-sense that he becomes a hollow when he gives up and doesn't finish the game. Looking at completion rates this actually happens to most players ;)

In DS 2 the curse is shown more in-depth and is also accompanied by losing one's memories and self before one finally becomes a soul-eating hollow.

Most of that is correct, but there is one major thing you got mixed up.

Undead =/= hollow

And undead is any being with the darksign, human, hollow, sane, insane, whatever.

A hollow is specifically a being with either no souls of light within, or a much more powerful dark within. Hollows were the first beings, yes. NOT undead.

[Smoking Chihuahua]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGhrcABaRUU&ab_channel=BloodRoninGaming

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5rgf4ctq10&ab_channel=BanditGames

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7uv5vG4bb4&ab_channel=ArlunGrim

[vamirez]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Most of that is correct, but there is one major thing you got mixed up.

Undead =/= hollow

And undead is any being with the darksign, human, hollow, sane, insane, whatever.

A hollow is specifically a being with either no souls of light within, or a much more powerful dark within. Hollows were the first beings, yes. NOT undead.

No, sorry - what I said about hollowing / hollows comes directly from the games (many different NPC dialogues, for example) and is correct. Where did you get your definition from?

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by vamirez:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Most of that is correct, but there is one major thing you got mixed up.

Undead =/= hollow

And undead is any being with the darksign, human, hollow, sane, insane, whatever.

A hollow is specifically a being with either no souls of light within, or a much more powerful dark within. Hollows were the first beings, yes. NOT undead.

No, sorry - what I said about hollowing / hollows comes directly from the games and is correct. Where did you get your definition from?

From the games themselves, and I know what I'm talking about on this, as does Xengre. You can either believe what we're telling you or don't at this point.

You're mixing those terms up.

[vamirez]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Originally posted by vamirez:

No, sorry - what I said about hollowing / hollows comes directly from the games and is correct. Where did you get your definition from?

From the games themselves, and I know what I'm talking about on this, as does Xengre. You can either believe what we're telling you or don't at this point.

You're mixing those terms up.

Nope.

https://darksouls.fandom.com/wiki/Hollow

Check the listed references, too.


"The Darksign signifies an accursed Undead. Those branded with it are reborn after death, but will one day lose their mind and go Hollow."

[Sabaithal]

Originally posted by vamirez:

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

From the games themselves, and I know what I'm talking about on this, as does Xengre. You can either believe what we're telling you or don't at this point.

You're mixing those terms up.

Nope.

https://darksouls.fandom.com/wiki/Hollow

Check the listed references, too.


"The Darksign signifies an accursed Undead. Those branded with it are reborn after death, but will one day lose their mind and go Hollow."

You literally just said exactly what I've been telling you. Read the thing you just quoted at me, slowly this time.

[vamirez]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Originally posted by vamirez:

Nope.

https://darksouls.fandom.com/wiki/Hollow

Check the listed references, too.


"The Darksign signifies an accursed Undead. Those branded with it are reborn after death, but will one day lose their mind and go Hollow."

You literally just said exactly what I've been telling you. Read the thing you just quoted at me, slowly this time.

The. Undead. Will. Eventually. Lose. Their. Mind. And. Go. Hollow.