So what's going on with Melina and Ranni?

[IchigoMait]

Both seem to be linked, Melinas eye burned shut. (rune of death)
Ranni died after being burnt to a crisp. (rune of death)
Both look the same, but Ranni is just a doll, in the vicinity of a doll maker in the castle. (only reason because of the Rune of Death mark and mirror image, they don't look similar side by side)

Normally would think they both are twins, in terms twin spirits, sharing the same body.
Like Marika & Radagon, Irina & Hyetta and Yura & Shabriri dunno about others, but that seems to be a thing in that world, because of Marika who rules over it, who also combined with the Elden Beast, we've never seen any of them exist at the same time, alive that is.

Considering the lore.
Seems Ranni stole the Rune of Death, used that to kill her body only, and also killed her step brother Godwyn in spirit only, that already shows her twin was Godwyn, which ensured she would die only in body, showing that the twin thing is an ongoing thing.

For some reason she had to kill Godwyn in spirit only, for her to kill her body only. And that's probably because her father is Radagon and mother is Rennala. While Godwyn's mother is Marika, father being Godfrey. While Marika and Radagon are the same halves.

Then she bound her spirit into a doll that resembles her former master Snow Witch.
Thought maybe Melina would be the Snow Witch, but another option is that Melina is one of the assassins of Black Knives, and got cursed by the Death Rune, like Ranni herself, so the similarity could be just a red herring. Also Melina probably is a Numen like all the other assassin's of Marika's Black Knives.

Ranni's choice of doll look was based on her mentor who is called a Snow Witch, but Rennala is also a Snow Witch, but also mother of Ranni.

Also Ranni tried to save Rennala, when you had the first stage fight against Rennala, the second stage fight is an illusion made by Ranni trying to save her, even if it's not needed, Rennala still lives.

For peeps who didn't know.
Lunar Princess Ranni's Relative(s)
Radagon (father)
Queen Rennala (mother)
General Radahn (brother)

Praetor Rykard (brother)
Malenia the Severed (half-sister)
Miquella (half-brother)
Godwyn the Golden (stepbrother)
Morgott, the Omen King (stepbrother)
Mohg, Lord of Blood (stepbrother)


Conclusion.
Ranni is the daughter of Rennala and Radagon.
She stole a Rune of Death from Maliketh, and imbued the power into her assassin's of Black Knives and orchestrated her own death for freedom. She killed her stebrother's soul and her own body and bound herself to a doll in the image of her mentor Snow Witch, which is also called her mother Rennala, for the sake of not being a puppet of the gods and make a world where gods don't rule, ironic lel.

Melina is the daughter of Marika and ???.
Her purpose is to kindle the flame, she is basically a living furnace log. But she will be pissed off if you try to burn the entire world, basically making her entire existence meaningless, she won't be pissed off if you only sacrifice yourself instead of using her. But she can't get pissed off, if you sacrifice her beforehand, jokes on her.
That's pretty much it about her.

But then we have this.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jpMzm-32wp8/maxresdefault.jpg

[Sabaithal]

Publicado originalmente por Dollmaker:

Again, pure speculation with the whole Frenzy thing, and honestly, doesnt have much weight behind it.

The thing about the Queen, is that all we know, is that theres a connection between the two, but we dont know how, like i mentioned in my first post in this thread, its possible that Melina was created from the Queen's remains, since Marika is obviously the "mother" Melina talks about, and since Maliketh is under her direct orders, it wouldnt be much of a stretch to believe Marika ultimately used the Queen to create Melina.

And the Frenzy ending doesnt really say anything about her mindset other than wanting to kill the Lord of Frenzy for destroying the world.

There's nothing definitive for her relation with the frenzy flame, but its far from speculation. Her warning of it tells you she has knowledge of it, the fact that she searches for a way to burn the erdtree further strengthens this connection, as does her reappearance if you chose to burn the tree with the frenzy flame. The details are speculation, the connection is not. She's dealt with the frenzy flame before, one way or the other, we know this for a fact.

And again, her appearance at the end of said cutscene. That's direct evidence of who she really is, there's no real arguing that. You can deny it if you want, and I suppose you could also deny that the world is round while you're at it. You're not going to get more definitive evidence than that, short of her directly telling you her old name.

[Dollmaker]

Publicado originalmente por Sabaithal:

Publicado originalmente por Dollmaker:

Again, pure speculation with the whole Frenzy thing, and honestly, doesnt have much weight behind it.

The thing about the Queen, is that all we know, is that theres a connection between the two, but we dont know how, like i mentioned in my first post in this thread, its possible that Melina was created from the Queen's remains, since Marika is obviously the "mother" Melina talks about, and since Maliketh is under her direct orders, it wouldnt be much of a stretch to believe Marika ultimately used the Queen to create Melina.

And the Frenzy ending doesnt really say anything about her mindset other than wanting to kill the Lord of Frenzy for destroying the world.

There's nothing definitive for her relation with the frenzy flame, but its far from speculation. Her warning of it tells you she has knowledge of it, the fact that she searches for a way to burn the erdtree further strengthens this connection, as does her reappearance if you chose to burn the tree with the frenzy flame. The details are speculation, the connection is not. She's dealt with the frenzy flame before, one way or the other, we know this for a fact.

And again, her appearance at the end of said cutscene. That's direct evidence of who she really is, there's no real arguing that. You can deny it if you want, and I suppose you could also deny that the world is round while you're at it. You're not going to get more definitive evidence than that, short of her directly telling you her old name.

Again, her connection to the Queen isnt fully explained in any capacity, just that they are related in some way.

Melina's character doesnt appear to change from what we saw before, she essentially acts the same, moving forward with her threat to kill the player in the ending for destroying the world.


And we know next to nothing about the Queen herself, but simply based on how the Godslayers act (literally skinning people and wearing it has clothes) it greatly clashes with how Melina acts, wanting to fix the world and being hopeful, plus her aversion to the Frenzy Flame since it destroys and consumes everything.

[IchigoMait]

Updated some of the info, seems Melina is just a Red Herring in terms of having a mirror image rune of death curse mark.

Melina herself though says her mother is from the Erdtree.

"Purpose

Me, I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago, for the reason that I yet live, burned and bodyless.
There is something for which I must apologize. I've acted the finger maiden yet I can offer no guidance, I am no maiden.
My purpose was long ago lost...

When resting at Altus Plateau

The Erdtree...is close. Only a little further till the foot of the Erdtree, and the accord is fulfilled. It takes me back. I was born at the foot of the Erdtree. Where mother gave me my purpose. Though now, everything is lost to me. I...have to ascertain for myself. The reason for which I live, burned and bodiless.

Upon resting at the Snow Valley Ruins Overlook Site of Grace

There is something I'd like to say. My purpose was given to me by my mother. But now, I act of my own volition.
I have set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's designs.
I won't allow anyone to speak ill of that. Not even you.
"

Also
""The description of her dagger refers to her as the "kindling maiden"
"
Dagger given to one who set out on a journey to fulfill her duty long ago. The power of its former owner, the kindling maiden, is still apparent.

The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death.
"
Melinas internal name in the game files is "MaricaOfDaughter". Her dialogue in the game already heavily hints at Marika being her mother.""


So basically the question is, why does Melina have the same Curse Mark of Rune of Death as Ranni, but mirrored, which one of the marks is the real one, and which one is the mirrored one, why are they mirrored.

[Trehek]

Another potential thing of note is that there are three kinds of butterflies in the game. The aeonian butterfly "was once part of Malenia's wings", the nascent butterfly "appears as if it's just emerged from its cocoon for its entire life" just as the ever-young Miquella, and the third is the smoldering butterfly which doesn't provide a lore clue itself but might refer to a third daughter of Marika, possibly the kindling maiden.

[IchigoMait]

Publicado originalmente por Trehek:

Another potential thing of note is that there are three kinds of butterflies in the game. The aeonian butterfly "was once part of Malenia's wings", the nascent butterfly "appears as if it's just emerged from its cocoon for its entire life" just as the ever-young Miquella, and the third is the smoldering butterfly which doesn't provide a lore clue itself but might refer to a third daughter of Marika, possibly the kindling maiden.

Yep you're right.

Aeonian Buttefly - refers to Malenia
"A butterfly with withered, scarlet wings found in the swamp of Aeonia.
According to myth, these butterflies were once the wings of the Goddess of Rot herself."

Nascent Butterfly - Miquella forever young
"An arcane butterfly with translucent wings.
This butterfly appears as if it's just emerged from its cocoon for its entire life."

Smoldering Butterfly - refers to the unknown child, but Malenia herself has mentioned her mother being in the Erdtree, and her weapon refers Malenia being a kindling maiden.
"An eternally burning butterfly found near wildfires and elsewhere.
Serves as the kindling for a number of items."

[Trehek]

Publicado originalmente por IchigoMait:

So basically the question is, why does Melina have the same Curse Mark of Rune of Death as Ranni, but mirrored, which one of the marks is the real one, and which one is the mirrored one, why are they mirrored.

Ranni and Melina do have marks on mirrored eyes, but I don't get where the rest of this comes from. Ranni's eye mark looks like a claw, while Ranni's is much more intricate, as seen here:

https://stepstone-challenge.digital/fi/wp-content/uploads/gr-originals/555455126_138.jpg

The marks bear no resemblance to each other. Neither do they bear resemblance to the Rune of Death which Malekith possesses, which resembles a cross, seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AexPtIvNsuU

and here

https://preview.redd.it/jbaqdf7lci391.png?auto=webp&s=6778d762bae25ade48c87c95e72ad6c3cabbf4cb

The shard which Ranni stole from the rune, the Cursemark of Death, looks like none of the above:

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Cursemark+of+Death

On the other hand, both Ranni and Godwin, who were slain with the daggers imbued with the cursemark, displayed a cursemark shaped scar on their backs.

Godwin:
https://preview.redd.it/rz47vy9eplm81.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=2785703bcab0ee35a1408d02ed8bda72d6caabc0

Ranni:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1833549455334123881/1201F6224925C0E772467CA0604620F39D1EF4EB/

And of course, when Fia uses her abilities to combine the cursemark of death with a "reverse cursemark" recovered from the essence of Fortissax, who "fought long and hard against the Death within its companion", she creates a completely new rune, the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince, which "formed of the two hallowbrand half-wheels combined, will embed the principle of life within Death into Order".

Conclusion:

I don't think either Melina's or Ranni's eye markings connect to anything else we know of. Personally, I think Melina is the Gloam-eyed Queen who held the Rune of Death for a time and then lost to Maliketh, and her eye mark is a scar from that battle, possibly a reference to Maliketh's Beast Claw. We know that Ranni has her own great rune but not its shape. However, Ranni's eye rune doesn't resemble any part of the Elden Ring, so I don't think it's her great rune. Personally, I think that Ranni's eye rune is the spell she cast to anchor her soul to the doll, as it's where her ethereal face is anchored on the doll's physical face.

[IchigoMait]

Publicado originalmente por Trehek:

Conclusion:

I don't think either Melina's or Ranni's eye markings connect to anything else we know of. Personally, I think Melina is the Gloam-eyed Queen who held the Rune of Death for a time and then lost to Maliketh, and her eye mark is a scar from that battle, possibly a reference to Maliketh's Beast Claw. We know that Ranni has her own great rune but not its shape. However, Ranni's eye rune doesn't resemble any part of the Elden Ring, so I don't think it's her great rune. Personally, I think that Ranni's eye rune is the spell she cast to anchor her soul to the doll, as it's where her ethereal face is anchored on the doll's physical face.

So yeah, the entire Ranni and Melina thing is just a big red herring, in the state they are now.
Though they did have some connection through the death rune indirectly, but who didn't at this point.
At least now I know that Melina is also a daughter of Marika for sure, besides jabbering on about her all the time.

[Trehek]

Yeah, that's my take, at least.

[IchigoMait]

Publicado originalmente por Trehek:

Yeah, that's my take, at least.

Wish we had more optional quest progressions with Melina.
My first take was sacrifing Melina, getting the frenzied flame, missed where Millicent was, even though I defeated the tree worm, ended up getting the frenzied ending, while Melina was dead, Hyetta also dead (lel), and well everyone dead, before I chose the ending, as I looted the bells, but that was before the patch that transferred over the bells, so lel me.

Then I used an older save, before Melina was sacrificed, got frenzied flame first, sacrificed myself, Melina lives, but this time I found Millicent in her last location and face palmed myself, so frenzied flame was removed before meeting the pissed off Melina, ended Elden Beast, did some save scumming for the other endings, and as the last choice Ranni's ending.

Both of those choices basically cut Melina off from the game after the sacrifice for the flame.
So I've never seen pissed off Melina. Same with ng+, she got sacrificed again, so I'll have to wait for ng+2, after I've lvl'up, at lvl 333 so far, collected 9.8 mil at one point, getting sleepy and walking off the edge was the only challenge, which happened, but only once, opened my eyes while falling, was like oh ♥♥♥♥.

[Mander]

Are we even sure about the inference that Melina’s mother is inside the Erdtree = Melina’s mother is Marika?

Bear with me and let’s blatantly disregard what the datamining says about the relation between Melina and Marika (internal files call Melina, “daughter of Marika”, but names and role are changed so much since development’s beginning that files’ references should not be taken for granted)

I’m just stirring the thoughts’ pot here, but we know that Marika isn’t the first of the Empyreans chosen to manage the Lands Between on behalf of an Outer God. We also know that the Gloam Eyed Queen was the previous rule of the Lands Between, until Maliketh stole the rune of death from her. Now, let’s… add some speculation. Considering the love for the twins’ theme we’ve seen in ER, I would not be pikachu surprised if the Gloam Eyed Queen was Marika’s twin. What if, after her defeat by the hand of Maliketh, the Greater Will did to the Gloam Eyed Queen the same thing it did to Marika once she rebelled? i.e. Imprisoning her inside the Erdtree?
After all, afawk, only Erdtrees are capable of restraining an Empyrean’s power, as we’ve seen with Marika and Malenia (where the power of the Haligtree restrains Malenia’s power incontinence: when she blooms, the consecrated snowfields aren’t bionuked by the Scarlet Rot).
What if the Gloam Eyed Queen is still restrained inside the Erdtree’s roots, and in her imprisonment, she managed to detach a single sliver of her power, to burn the Erdtree to the ground and free her?
I mean, when Melina tells us that she is “born burned and bodiless”, I’ve always find it strange and dissonant with the theme of the Golden Order… but it ties quite more nicely with the Black Flame of the Gloam Eyed Queen, both on surface level and thematically: the Godskin Apostle are surrogates children for the Gloam Eyed Queen, who maybe because of being the receptacle of the Black Flame, was unable to bear children by herself.

[IchigoMait]

Publicado originalmente por Mander:

Melina's own words
"Regardless of my mother's designs.
I won't allow anyone to speak ill of that. Not even you."
The only designs that exist at the moment were made by Queen Marika. Queen Marika sent Maliketh to kill the Gloam-eyed Queen, got her Rune of Death and sealed it away, so Gloam-eyed Queen designs shouldn't exist even anymore, considering the main theme was death, which doesn't exist for Queen Marika, or well she didn't want it to exist.

Plus the butterfly thing wouldn't make sense, why have 2 butterflies related to Marika's children, and 1 of some other parent, which Marika despised. The world we are in at the moment was designed by Marika.

Some of the stuff prolly is different in jpns, so who knows what was lost in translation, from japanese to english to japanese to english, who's ever idea was made first and then forwarded and redone or not, and then used for the english version.

[Mander]

Publicado originalmente por IchigoMait:

Publicado originalmente por Mander:

Melina's own words
"Regardless of my mother's designs.
I won't allow anyone to speak ill of that. Not even you."
The only designs that exist at the moment were made by Queen Marika. Queen Marika sent Maliketh to kill the Gloam-eyed Queen, got her Rune of Death and sealed it away, so Gloam-eyed Queen designs shouldn't exist even anymore, considering the main theme was death, which doesn't exist for Queen Marika, or well she didn't want it to exist.

Plus the butterfly thing wouldn't make sense, why have 2 butterflies related to Marika's children, and 1 of some other butterfly. The world we are in at the moment was designed by Marika.

Not every part of it: nokron, nokstella... and also there are remnants abundant of the previous rulers of the Lands Between (Farum Azula).
And the Godskin Apostles are very much alive and kicking around… which is interesting. Considering they were the royal guards of the Gloam Eyed Queen, personally I would be interested in determining their end game.

[NineChameleon]

My personal theory is that Melina is the daughter of Radagon and the Gloam Eyed Queen. Mainly because yeah the description we get of the Gloam Eyed Queen does not really match Melina's personality.

In this case, Marika would still be her "mother" because Radagon IS Marika. So Marika is her Father AND Mother. This might explain why she only has a single "Gloam" eye and one Golden One. How she uses a Golden Flame from her blade when summoned in battle. She has the power of the death from her mother, but also is linked to the golden order through Radagon and so can effect the immortal erdtree.

It could be that once born, Marika sealed her gloam eye shut to keep her identity secret. The seal only breaking on Marika's death. Which only happens in the Frenzy Flame Ending and the Age of Stars Ending.

It's also possible that maybe she killed the Player's Maiden at the start of the game so as to have an in with us. And as we know, the power of destined death is now required in the lands between to kill anyone permanently thanks to Godwyn turning into the Prince of Death. Side implication here is that the only reason we can succeed at all to become Elden Lord is because we've been given a small bit of the Power of Destined Death. From Melina.

But this is all my personal theory. Probably wrong. Just thought I'd share it.

[IchigoMait]

Publicado originalmente por NineChameleon:

My personal theory is that Melina is the daughter of Radagon and the Gloam Eyed Queen. Mainly because yeah the description we get of the Gloam Eyed Queen does not really match Melina's personality.

In this case, Marika would still be her "mother" because Radagon IS Marika. So Marika is her Father AND Mother. This might explain why she only has a single "Gloam" eye and one Golden One. How she uses a Golden Flame from her blade when summoned in battle. She has the power of the death from her mother, but also is linked to the golden order through Radagon and so can effect the immortal erdtree.

It could be that once born, Marika sealed her gloam eye shut to keep her identity secret. The seal only breaking on Marika's death. Which only happens in the Frenzy Flame Ending and the Age of Stars Ending.

It's also possible that maybe she killed the Player's Maiden at the start of the game so as to have an in with us. And as we know, the power of destined death is now required in the lands between to kill anyone permanently thanks to Godwyn turning into the Prince of Death. Side implication here is that the only reason we can succeed at all to become Elden Lord is because we've been given a small bit of the Power of Destined Death. From Melina.

But this is all my personal theory. Probably wrong. Just thought I'd share it.

That't would make Melina Marika's stepdaughter, if Radagon is the father of Melina, though would earn a spot for the butterfly logic.

Main problem is no idea who is the father of Melina, we can only speculate 2 mothers, while Marika would be the most logical choice, considering how she always talks about her, and her designs and you can't say anything bad about her designs.

Also she mentioned
"In Marika's own words. Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..."
With everything else she qouted she never paused, but this time she did, and right after the sentences that shows what she is. So another indication of her mother being Queen Marika.

[NineChameleon]

Publicado originalmente por Mander:

Not every part of it: nokron, nokstella... and also there are remnants abundant of the previous rulers of the Lands Between (Farum Azula).
And the Godskin Apostles are very much alive and kicking around… which is interesting. Considering they were the royal guards of the Gloam Eyed Queen, personally I would be interested in determining their end game.

It's important to note that the other rulers of the lands between possibly served different outer gods though. We know Placidusax did. And we know of one other outer god that existed, whoever send the Twinbird. Mother of the Deathbirds. So even if other people previously ruled the lands between. We are now in the "Age of the Erdtree." Which is then replaced by whatever ending we get.
It's ALSO important to note that no matter what ending we end up in, the Elden Beast (the outer god behind the Erdtree) is dead.

Read into that what you will.