Queen Marika's Ultimate Goal [Spoilers]

[Lantantan]

TLDR: Queen Marika intended to release the Frenzied Flame.

First of all, Marika is clearly no longer friends with the Greater Will, being literally crucified on the Elden Ring. Likely part of this falling out, we'll explore if the Frenzied Flame might be Marika's ultimate goal.

Melina
First of our witnesses is Melina, our "Finger Maiden" is not a finger maiden, an agent of the Two Fingers and the Greater Will, but a "Kindling Maiden" as described by her own knife. This likely daughter of Queen Marika/Radagon who intimately knows or hears Marika's words tells us she reject her mother's designs and she urges us to choose one of the Elden Lord endings. Melina also VERY passionately urges you NOT to choose the Frenzied Flame, possibily her and clearly Vyke's burns are from the FF. Marika also doesn't want Ranni's ending, sending her Assassins to kill Ranni's companions during the game. To me this strongly suggests of the 6 possible endings, Queen Marika intended the Frenzied Flame ending to happen.

Gideon
Our second witness is Gideon, The All Knowing. Foremost of the forsaken and once seeking to become Elden Lord himself. After defeating him, his armor description tells us: "But when Gideon glimpsed into the will of Queen Marika, he shuddered in fear." He also tries to stop us from becoming the Elden Lord and tells us no forsaken can become lord. to me this sounds like Gideon thinks Marika does not want any forsaken to become HER Elden Lord. This makes sense to me because even if you modify the Elden Ring Marika remains immortal and enslaved, even if the Elden Ring might be possibly severed from the Greater Will/Beast.

Finger Reader
Finally there's a Finger Reader who after reading your hands recoils after seeing the future in your fingers. "You will face wrath, then madness, and finally, chaos." This is pretty speculative but I think, that because Marika created all us forsaken, it is the future she intended for us that the Finger Reader reads in our fingers.

[Lantantan]

Counterpoint
Melina's dagger, the "Blade of Calling" calls her the "kindling maiden". She wouldn't have needed to be kindling if the Frenzied Flame was intended. Vyke, the forsaken closest to becoming Lord, could just have been seeking for a way to save his maiden. This could be why Melina knows of the Frenzied Flame, and was burned.

Is Melina the Emperian Gloam-Eyed?

[Lantantan]

Originally posted by < blank >:

The theft of the rune of death and assassination of multiple demigods undermined Marika's control over the lands between as God-Queen but these events were an even greater blow to the Will's golden order - an order Marika herself had already worked to bend her way - why then would she suddenly flip the table so to speak and send everything into chaos ?

In game descriptions about the black knives heavily implies they're under control of Marika, lemme dig up the relevant quotes for you. There's also Marika's betrayal of Maliketh, her shadow beast. This betrayal might be Marika's stealing of the death run, given to Maliketh for safekeeping.

Now the reason for Marika's grand betrayal is harder to know. First let's remind ourselves that Marika is literally crucified by the Elden Ring. It's safe to say they're no longer friends. It might simply be because the Elden Ring was trying to create successors, the empyrians to replace her. Or because she resented the controll of the Greater Will over her. Much like Ranni resented the Greater Will's fingers. Or Marika learned to reject the greater will for some other reason learned through the studies of fundamentalism. Your thoughts?

[--T-a-u-r-u-s--]

Gideon was saying he follow marikas will or something and that ther can not be tarnished elden lord

[Lantantan]

Originally posted by < blank >:

I think you may be misascribing rannis plots to Marika and trying to extrapolate motivations she may not have had

Ranni admits to creating the black knives and killing herself. But the assassins who kill godwin are Marika's. Indeed ingame after following Ranni's questline, Marika's assassins kill (or try to kill) all of Ranni's beloved henchmen. This is because Marika doesn't want Ranni's ending. In favor of imho, the Frenzied Flame. If Ranni controlled the black knife assassins, I really cant imagine her ordering the attempted assassination of her wolf bestie.

[Target]

I think its 100% too vague to be sure, but I think she was trying to make herself and the Elden Ring 1 complete entity, so her reign would be as eternal as the Elden Ring itself.

Alternatively she might have already been the Elden ring, or the Elden beast. And I am still not sure if Radagon was Working with her or against her (yes I know the twist but that doesnt answer my question)

Vague and complicated dont really go together. I dont think it is really possible to put all the pieces together coherently, there are just too freakin many of them.

[Lantantan]

Originally posted by --T-a-u-r-u-s--:

Gideon was saying he follow marikas will or something and that ther can not be tarnished elden lord

I think he means that Marika's will is for nobody to become HER lord, which would mean continuation of the Greater Will's enslavement. Yet Gideon is also not ready to accept the Frenzied Flame's ending, as suggested by his armour description. Thus Gideon has no choice but try to stop you from reaching the end.

[Lantantan]

Originally posted by < blank >:

But since those assassin's use the death flame (on warmastrr Iji) associated with the godskin apostles - not the frenzied flame but perhaps a different outer god altogether - which would suggest either Marika was not controlling them OR she is not under influence of frenzied flame but a different power

Fair point! but you do agree this makes it unlikely that Ranni controls the black knives?

[Tiasmoon]

Originally posted by < blank >:

Ranni was responsible for the night of black knives - it was her own play against the greater will and it's golden order

I think you may be misascribing rannis plots to Marika and trying to extrapolate motivations she may not have had

That said I can really disagree with anything you said in the OP it checks out but regardless of the truth Marika and her actions is the main quandry in Elden Ring

The only sources we have of Ranni's connection is her own words on the matter, and Rogier saying she's the one who imbued the knives. Iirc he also mentioned it had 2 signs on it, one of Ranni and one unknown. The unknown might well be Marika.

A lot of things arent specifically mentioned, so who knows in the end. Ranni is a weird outlier in many cases as she does specifically say a bunch of things that are otherwise left vague.

Originally posted by Target:

Vague and complicated dont really go together. I dont think it is really possible to put all the pieces together coherently, there are just too freakin many of them.

That is my conclusion as well.

[Lantantan]

Originally posted by Target:

Alternatively she might have already been the Elden ring, or the Elden beast. And I am still not sure if Radagon was Working with her or against her (yes I know the twist but that doesnt answer my question)

I think Radagon gaining the Golden Order part of Marika was an earlier attempt by Marika to try and separate herself from the Elden Ring. Originally the Elden Ring also contained Radagon's Crisscross grid Elden rune. There's also theories of Radagon being a tool by the Greater Will to control Marika. Him fighting us and being wielded as a sword by the Elden Beast sure support that.

[GONDAL]

Originally posted by Target:

I think its 100% too vague to be sure, but I think she was trying to make herself and the Elden Ring 1 complete entity, so her reign would be as eternal as the Elden Ring itself.

Alternatively she might have already been the Elden ring, or the Elden ring. And I am still not sure if Radagon was Working with er or against her (yes I know the twist but that doesnt answer my question)

Vague and complicated dont really go together. I dont think it is really possible to put all the pieces together coherently, there are just too freakin many of them.

I suspect Radagon was working against Marika. After all, he tried to fix the ring after she broke it, so there is an obvious difference in goals and motivations.

[GONDAL]

Originally posted by < blank >:

Originally posted by Lantantan:

Fair point! but you do agree this makes it unlikely that Ranni controls the black knives?

I'd have to look into that more - almost all of my confusion on the lore surrounds ranni - I think it was more than mistranslations, her character and quest is a bit confusing

Also as a counter point to my own previous post - even if Marika is utilizing powers from an outer god other than the frenzied flame, it doesn't rule out a relationship with the FF - Marika as repeatedly shown to be fickle and willing to use and then discard anyone to achieve her goals - god, demigod, and tarnished alike !

We should also ask, why is the frenzied flame temple in Leyndell, supposedly the holiest place at the foot of the Erdtree? Marika's doing?

[Lantantan]

Originally posted by < blank >:

Also as a counter point to my own previous post - even if Marika is utilizing powers from an outer god other than the frenzied flame, it doesn't rule out a relationship with the FF - Marika as repeatedly shown to be fickle and willing to use and then discard anyone to achieve her goals - god, demigod, and tarnished alike !

Oooooh nice! This reminded me of Marika's quote:

"Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved.
Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God.
But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken.
Amounting only to sacrifices... "

Wanting her children to be lords or gods sounds like she was looking for an alternative to the Elden Ring. In addition to her being a godawefull parent. Marika's church quotes, according to Melina show a path of her increasing doubt.

[Lantantan]

Originally posted by AzureDreams:

We should also ask, why is the frenzied flame temple in Leyndell, supposedly the holiest place at the foot of the Erdtree? Marika's doing?

The genocide pit below the capital sure doesn't feel tree holy.

[Tiasmoon]

Originally posted by AzureDreams:

We should also ask, why is the frenzied flame temple in Leyndell, supposedly the holiest place at the foot of the Erdtree? Marika's doing?

Its not in Leyndell tho, but far below it. It's right above the Deeproots area where you can also find the deathblight and the Prince of Death, as well as ruins of an Eternal City.

I'm not sure there's much holy there.

[Lantantan]

I'm reformatting the original post, here's the original:

Originally posted by Lantantan:

Queen Marika intended to release the Frenzied Flame.

The ending Gideon was afraid of.
The purpose Melina was born for, knows intimately and tells us to reject.
Forsaken created by her for this purpose, of whom Vyke came closest.
Was Melina Vykes perhaps mentioned maiden?
Shattering of the elden ring was not done in grief, but to cripple the Will.
Melina's is connected to the black knife assassins, same weapon and same fighting style.
Marika's implied controll of the black knife assassins implies control over Melina, initially.
Marika explicitly said she does NOT want to follow her mother's designs. She also passionately does NOT want the Frenzied Flame ending to happen.