Lore - Is it Incomplete, Mistranslated, or Purposefully Cryptic? Do We Know?

[ChrisPharmD]

LORE SPOILERS

------------------------------------

TL:DR - Feel free to skip this part!

That One Guy: "FromSoft games don't have a story!"
Thank you for that. Your point is understood and honestly taken into consideration. After struggling with Dark Souls 1 lore, I eventually came to that actual conclusion especially when Dark Souls 3 threw a giant wrench in the equation. And Bloodborne made my head spin, not gonna lie.

That One Other Guy: "This game sucks."
As somebody who hated Cyberpunk 2077 when many people on the forums loved it, I find myself in a situation where I'm now the person who loves the game and there are many who hate it. That said, I genuinely feel a sense of sadness that this game failed to deliver for you, and I have a lot of qualms with the game myself. Though admittedly, I am a FromSoft fanboy, I try as hard as I can not to be a blind fanboy because a great many of my favorite game studios have become shells of their previous selves. Also, I've created many threads harshly criticizing Elden Ring, but overall, I feel fortunate that I could put over 500 hours into the game and still love it.

Another point of clarification, I don't expect the story to be pieced together perfectly and I'm not nitpicking plot holes nor trying to reason out every single game mechanic. I know that some things are just in place because it is a videogame and there's no need to explain why Tarnished can jump but Humans and Hollows in previous titles don't have this ability.

With that out of the way, my small circle of friends and I have had extensive discussions about the lore of this game, and we all have different opinions about it. Our conversations are always a constant back and forth of what's actually happening, what has happened, and what we might see in potential DLC.

Lore videos are obviously a huge part of where I find most of my information because I'm not 200IQ, capable of breaking this game down via Item Descriptions alone. However, many lore videos come to some conclusions that I'm either not so sure of or I mistakenly accepted as truth and later was corrected by a friend.

------------------------------------

So, instead of going through one particular issue, I'm just going to ask what you think. Do you think the lore is "relatively" complete or do you think it's unfinished? Is it purposefully cryptic? Or do you think there are significant translation errors in the story telling?

Let me be extremely clear here. Saying that the lore is incomplete or mistranslated is not a diss on the game. Please understand that criticism is not always a bad thing. Putting the cart before the horse, I want to see nothing more than the next FromSoft game be the Greatest Game of All Time. I think we all do.

What do you think? Or if you have insight that I don't have, let me know! I'm also not a lore expert like VaatiVidya... so my opinion does NOT matter because I honestly don't know. Maybe none of us really know.

Thanks!

[ライブキングライバル]

Well, I know that Miyazaki's style to make story incomplete on purpose and from previous From Software's works I'm sure that didn't stop them to have a very nice stories. If lore doesn't matter to you that doesn't means that story doesn't matter at all.

I really spent bunch of time to sort out ER lore by myself but unfortunately for me searching new lore details is more much fun than that lore itself. By lore i mean visual narrative, item description, npc's phrases and official information. When I started playing DS, I also tried to figure out what is happening by myself and that was really difficult so I decided to watch explanation videos and read wiki forums instead. And you know, story of each Dark Souls was really impressive and even not so strong DS2 bonds with others doesn't make it bad. But I can’t say that about Elden Ring, although I really love this game for all its shortcomings but even great plot twists makes me feel "Who cares..." And other stories explanations don't make me think somelike different...

I see no reason to rely on DLC, the story should tell everything from beginning to within the game, and the DLC themselves should be like good seasoning for the main dish but not like remedy for the cure from a so-so story.

[Aldain]

With Souls games?

All of the Above probably.

[Zero Signal]

Lore is generally just the history of a thing. So it doesnt matter if its cryptic. Ancient Earth civilizations have extremely cryptic incomplete lore/history. The more that is lost through time the more it can fire up someone''s imagination about it.

Story of this game is straight forward. Not cryptic at all. Ending is just a fromsoft ending lol, journey that matters most I guess.

[CrimsonKaze]

I think the game lore is a bit badly told and represented in the game, when I literally don't even know what the Elden Ring is.

I guess its some kind of ring, but is it a physical thing? It must be if it can be broken? But maybe it was more of a magical shattering of the concept with the magic enchanted hammer? How does it reform with just 2 runes out of all the runes from the demi gods? The runes clearly don't seem to be physical things and are more like magical markings, so the ring is more of a magical concept? If it is a physical thing, is it a finger ring or is it like a huge big ring kinda thing? What kind of powers does it actually have? Does it controle all of reality and in what way?
And I have many more questions, it would be nice to atleast have an answer to some of them, since it seems to be the core of this world and the title of the game, but the game makes finding answers to this either very hard or has no answers at all.

[Target]

"Is it purposefully cryptic" Yes, I would aslo add it is redundant in ways that make things extra confusing. Is the Elden beast the Greater will? Or the Elden ring given life? Or neither? The Elden Ring, the Erd Tree and the Golden order all fulfill almost the same purpose symbolically but are different things in the lore.

[Tiasmoon]

Publicado originalmente por < blank >:

contradicts other lore (empyreans supposedly being purely divine offspring)

Its not something stated in the lore. Key points in the lore are either not mentioned, or have conflicting information. This is a good example of the lore having holes in it. Its just that some people fill these holes with headcanon and thus dont see the holes they just filled.

Publicado originalmente por < blank >:

the game's final encounter and ending answers most of these questions...

The final encounter and ending answers pretty much none of that.
That is, assuming one does not write a fanfic answer of their own to fill in the blanks.

[MOSLEY]

It’s intentionally cryptic.

Miyazaki said that when he was young and didn’t speak much English, he would take English books from the library. He would read what he could, look at the pictures and fill in the blanks for himself. He wanted to create a similar experience with his games.

He also said that he is heavily inspired by the PS2-era game Ico, which was pretty cryptic.

[Noeat]

Purposefully Cryptic, as always.. it is significant trademark of Miyazaki games

https://web.archive.org/web/20161005123700/http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/dark-souls-creator-miyazaki-on-zelda-sequels-w443435

Zelda producer Eiji Aounuma thinks it's "a sin" to let players get lost in a game, and that has ultimately led to the series holding players' hands throughout. Conversely, the Souls games give players very little in the way of instruction or direction. You don't even implement a map in-game. Why?
Our goal was to allow players to do what they want, define their own goals, make their own discoveries, embrace their own values, and find their own interpretations. Core to that was the importance of getting lost. This gives value and meaning to finding one’s way. Also, we're just not very nimble when it comes to giving good guidance, and rather than try to overcome our own shortcomings, we decided to focus on things that we were good at.

//

and this:

Publicado originalmente por MOSLEY:

It’s intentionally cryptic.

Miyazaki said that when he was young and didn’t speak much English, he would take English books from the library. He would read what he could, look at the pictures and fill in the blanks for himself. He wanted to create a similar experience with his games.

He also said that he is heavily inspired by the PS2-era game Ico, which was pretty cryptic.

[Moth]

Publicado originalmente por ChrisPharmD:

LORE SPOILERS

------------------------------------

TL:DR - Feel free to skip this part!

That One Guy: "FromSoft games don't have a story!"
Thank you for that. Your point is understood and honestly taken into consideration. After struggling with Dark Souls 1 lore, I eventually came to that actual conclusion especially when Dark Souls 3 threw a giant wrench in the equation. And Bloodborne made my head spin, not gonna lie.

That One Other Guy: "This game sucks."
As somebody who hated Cyberpunk 2077 when many people on the forums loved it, I find myself in a situation where I'm now the person who loves the game and there are many who hate it. That said, I genuinely feel a sense of sadness that this game failed to deliver for you, and I have a lot of qualms with the game myself. Though admittedly, I am a FromSoft fanboy, I try as hard as I can not to be a blind fanboy because a great many of my favorite game studios have become shells of their previous selves. Also, I've created many threads harshly criticizing Elden Ring, but overall, I feel fortunate that I could put over 500 hours into the game and still love it.

Another point of clarification, I don't expect the story to be pieced together perfectly and I'm not nitpicking plot holes nor trying to reason out every single game mechanic. I know that some things are just in place because it is a videogame and there's no need to explain why Tarnished can jump but Humans and Hollows in previous titles don't have this ability.

With that out of the way, my small circle of friends and I have had extensive discussions about the lore of this game, and we all have different opinions about it. Our conversations are always a constant back and forth of what's actually happening, what has happened, and what we might see in potential DLC.

Lore videos are obviously a huge part of where I find most of my information because I'm not 200IQ, capable of breaking this game down via Item Descriptions alone. However, many lore videos come to some conclusions that I'm either not so sure of or I mistakenly accepted as truth and later was corrected by a friend.

------------------------------------

So, instead of going through one particular issue, I'm just going to ask what you think. Do you think the lore is "relatively" complete or do you think it's unfinished? Is it purposefully cryptic? Or do you think there are significant translation errors in the story telling?

Let me be extremely clear here. Saying that the lore is incomplete or mistranslated is not a diss on the game. Please understand that criticism is not always a bad thing. Putting the cart before the horse, I want to see nothing more than the next FromSoft game be the Greatest Game of All Time. I think we all do.

What do you think? Or if you have insight that I don't have, let me know! I'm also not a lore expert like VaatiVidya... so my opinion does NOT matter because I honestly don't know. Maybe none of us really know.

Thanks!

The lore -feels- quite complete but there's several sides that have no further exploration and which i'm betting there will be DLCs to make up for it.

While i'm 99% certain there's a lot of mistranslations and wrong interpretation as there's always been across the Souls series due to how Miyazaki seems to often base on japanese historical culture and folklore for many things [For example the stagnation of the time and world, based on the Shintoist concept of stagnating water]

Yet again Martin had an hand in the game's story so that adds another layer of possible interpretation, although all in all i feel we lack several core pieces

Namely:

-Godskins and the God-Hunt of the Gloam-Eyed Queen
-"The Crucible"
-Empyrean Miquella/Mohgwyn
-God of Rot/Servants of Rot
-Land of Reeds

[Smaugi]

Its left to the players interpretation.
If a player does not care about (most don't) then they will have no idea IT even exists

[Prett]

Publicado originalmente por ChrisPharmD:

Now, is it possible that there are translation errors or accidents?

Yes. The dialogue for the Age of Stars ending is pretty badly mistranslated: https://www.frontlinejp.net/2022/03/14/elden-ring-the-age-of-stars-ending-mistranslations-explained/

(This was mentioned earlier but I thought I'd provide a link)

[Janthis]

Lore - Is it Incomplete, Mistranslated, or Purposefully Cryptic?

Yes.

[Hans Wright]

It is 100% Incomplete, Mistranslated, AND Purposefully Cryptic. I would even add Lazy. I would LOVE to read even whole books of lore about each part of that world or listen about it from npcs dialogs, but it seems like there is about 20 people capable of talking left in the world. There is just so much wasted potential with what they have created, especially things like whole damm Nokstella/Nokron, Eternal city and Nox. Whole Godskin sect. Regal and its ancestral followers. And thats just to name a few. But all we have are some visual clues and few cryptic info from items. At first, i was ok with it, it makes imagination run wild, but then i have realised that this is WAY too convenient and info is way too short. I mean, devs could absolutely show much more from lore and there would be still tons of additional mysteries to uncover. Especially if they had George R. R. Martin to help.

[Original Gengar]

Publicado originalmente por Parsify:

Not incomplete nor cryptic.

It's like an RPG book. The world is set and not every little detail is given. In this sense, you are like a "master" in a RPG session, you must fill in the blanks, through imagination, investigation, whatever.

This is a pretty good comparison. IIRC the style of storytelling used in Souls games is based on Miyazaki being a big fan of western fantasy writers when he couldn't speak english perfectly, leaving him with a lot of holes in the lore/story he had to fill out himself.

[Grave]

What I want to understand is why, in all souls-like games and this one, you can kill someone and they're still around because you only killed their shade or something? Or they exist in 3 realities at once? Then they finally actually die when you weren't paying attention to their questline or something?

This is constant in the way life/death works in these games, and I don't understand the meaning.