Sorcery is overpowered ... until it isn't.

[Aetrion]

Sorcery has one fundamental problem in this game: It starts out so strong that almost everyone thinks it's overpowered, and it even gets called easy mode, but it doesn't scale well into endgame and NG+ at all. You wind up with a situation where most people are calling for nerfs for something that actually needs a pretty significant buff to be viable as a serious endgame build.

Essentially pure casters have the same problem as sniper rifles in FPS/RPG hybrids. A sniper rifle is one of the best weapons in the game as long as it kills enemies in one shot. Having to find a good sniper spot, sparse ammo, long reloads and careful aiming all pay off as long as getting headshots results in an instant kill. However, the second the game gives enemies enough health that your sniper rifle doesn't kill them in one shot it becomes one of the worst weapons in the game. It's ammo efficiency is instantly cut in half. Enemies that were previously dying without ever even seeing you now always get a chance to run, raise the alarm and shoot back no matter how well you picked your spot. Slow reloads and careful aim are now also no longer things you do while sneaking around, but things you have to do in open combat.

Now if you're someone who picks an assault rifle as their main weapon, runs in and starts blasting you might say that playing a sniper is too easy, but when the game hits that point where enemy HP becomes just a little too big for the sniper rifle to overcome you're still perfectly fine. Nothing much has changed for you. You've gone from needing 10 bullets to 11 bullets, and you're built for getting shot at.

Sorcery has exactly the same problem in Elden Ring. Limited FP, long charge times, glass cannon characters - these are all trade-offs you can happily make as long as your spells land with enough force to defeat enemies before they become a problem. The moment enemy HP becomes too high however that entire playstyle simply falls apart. Your FP efficiency drops through the floor, your ability to outplay enemies simply vanishes as all of them suddenly have enough time to come and fight you, and your fragile character doesn't do well trying to stand up to bosses that can two-shot even hardened fighters.

So this is actually a pretty big problem with Elden Ring, because so many people see spellcasters are overpowered or easy, but in actuality when you get to late game or go into NG+ they become really weak. The enemies eventually simply have so much health that your damage just isn't high enough to justify all the massive downsides your character has.

[ImHelping]

Ah, but you see, being the first person to ♥♥♥♥ out somebody doing a no-hit run proves it is actually OP at all times! Furthermore, I got an ouchy from pebble in PvP so mommy please nerf pebble.

Elden Ring has so many cool looking spells, but this constant dire reality is why I can hardly bring myself to go all in on sorcery. Which is before throwing in the extra wacky ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ like "Did... did I just panic parry a player's magic sword swing spell? Everybody told me it was literally unstoppable I win button!" in this franchise.

[BreakMan]

Originally posted by Aetrion:

Sorcery has one fundamental problem in this game: It starts out so strong that almost everyone thinks it's overpowered, and it even gets called easy mode, but it doesn't scale well into endgame and NG+ at all. You wind up with a situation where most people are calling for nerfs for something that actually needs a pretty significant buff to be viable as a serious endgame build.

Essentially pure casters have the same problem as sniper rifles in FPS/RPG hybrids. A sniper rifle is one of the best weapons in the game as long as it kills enemies in one shot. Having to find a good sniper spot, sparse ammo, long reloads and careful aiming all pay off as long as getting headshots results in an instant kill. However, the second the game gives enemies enough health that your sniper rifle doesn't kill them in one shot it becomes one of the worst weapons in the game. It's ammo efficiency is instantly cut in half. Enemies that were previously dying without ever even seeing you now always get a chance to run, raise the alarm and shoot back no matter how well you picked your spot. Slow reloads and careful aim are now also no longer things you do while sneaking around, but things you have to do in open combat.

Now if you're someone who picks an assault rifle as their main weapon, runs in and starts blasting you might say that playing a sniper is too easy, but when the game hits that point where enemy HP becomes just a little too big for the sniper rifle to overcome you're still perfectly fine. Nothing much has changed for you. You've gone from needing 10 bullets to 11 bullets, and you're built for getting shot at.

Sorcery has exactly the same problem in Elden Ring. Limited FP, long charge times, glass cannon characters - these are all trade-offs you can happily make as long as your spells land with enough force to defeat enemies before they become a problem. The moment enemy HP becomes too high however that entire playstyle simply falls apart. Your FP efficiency drops through the floor, your ability to outplay enemies simply vanishes as all of them suddenly have enough time to come and fight you, and your fragile character doesn't do well trying to stand up to bosses that can two-shot even hardened fighters.

So this is actually a pretty big problem with Elden Ring, because so many people see spellcasters are overpowered or easy, but in actuality when you get to late game or go into NG+ they are become really weak. The enemies eventually simply have so much health that your damage just isn't high enough to justify all the massive downsides your character has.

I did a mage as my second playtrough and I dont know if this is because it was on the 1.02 patch and I used a royal knight s resolve and determination alongside going pure int and having a knowledge of most of the bosses this was just spam to win with a carian slicer or wadagadasomething that oneshots with a flask

I still think that faith is funnier and the only fun thing from this paytrough was rannis ending and now on my third playtrough I at least enjoy parrying everything to death

[Lust]

I agree - I was pretty confident throughout the early game and then as I progressed my mage character seemed to fall more into a support role (meaning I can't solo the majority of bosses simply because I am a glass cannon). This was Ok for me as I am used to playing a support role in games such as Dota and have accepted that I wont be the stronk tarnished warrior (carry) I am intended to be.

I found after starting to build into a more faith/int that I use incantations more than spells and without them I would be doing alot less damage.

[Sabaithal]

Pure caster builds are always confident, until they run into a revenant for the first time.

[FauxFurry]

That is fairly common in games, table top or video, to have magic do immense damage per hit but to run out at critical junctures fairly quickly, making it less efficient for solo adventurers than it would be for a mage in a party.
https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/squishy_wizard_241.jpg

[Lust]

Originally posted by FauxFurry:

That is fairly common in games, table top or video, to have magic do immense damage per hit but to run out at critical junctures fairly quickly, making it less efficient for solo adventurers than it would be for a mage in a party.
https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/squishy_wizard_241.jpg

ME haha

[Humpenstilzchen]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Pure caster builds are always confident, until they run into a revenant for the first time.

My goodness I even hated the royal revenant as a melee character. This thing is cancer.

[kakodaimonos]

NG++++ here. Still oneshotting bosses with magic.

I don't really see the problem. It is still incredibly easy mode.

I ran through NG+++ in 2 hours with magic. Only "trouble" was the last boss because he is actually tanky but needed like 3 tries. But that's about it. Could cheese every boss pretty easy.

So yes, magic is insanely strong especially because you can keep your distance to bosses.

[Zero Signal]

Originally posted by kakodaimonos:

So yes, magic is insanely strong especially because you can keep your distance to bosses.

Not only that some of the inclose magery is brutal.

[justfaded]

BS... sorcery builds get the same amount of vigor as all endgame builds. If anything, sorcery builds get viable sooner than say, quality or hybrid builds.

All this talk about mages being glass cannons is bs.

[Caz]

I started noticing pretty early on (shortly after radahn) that my spells felt like they were hitting for a lot less than it seemed they should. I tried out some melee stuff (wasn't even bleed builds) and was hitting for much harder.

Sorceries and Incantations, while fun in general, don't scale nearly as well as melee. Especially because, unlike melee, Mages have a finite resource (FP) to kill with before they're required touch grace. Melee, on the other hand, never runs out of their offensive resource (Stamina).

[Zaskar]

Originally posted by kakodaimonos:

NG++++ here. Still oneshotting bosses with magic.

I don't really see the problem. It is still incredibly easy mode.

I ran through NG+++ in 2 hours with magic. Only "trouble" was the last boss because he is actually tanky but needed like 3 tries. But that's about it. Could cheese every boss pretty easy.

So yes, magic is insanely strong especially because you can keep your distance to bosses.

Comet Azur or Astel's Meteorite cheesing bosses doesn't mean that sorcery as a whole is strong. Most high level sorceries have garbage damage for the FP cost. I find Incantations to be far better as a whole for the lategame, better cost for better damage.

[Caz]

Originally posted by kakodaimonos:

NG++++ here. Still oneshotting bosses with magic.

I don't really see the problem. It is still incredibly easy mode.

I ran through NG+++ in 2 hours with magic. Only "trouble" was the last boss because he is actually tanky but needed like 3 tries. But that's about it. Could cheese every boss pretty easy.

So yes, magic is insanely strong especially because you can keep your distance to bosses.

When you're skipping 90% of the game and using WeMod, yea, I guess sorcery would feel like it's scaling fine.

[Zero Signal]

Originally posted by Caz:

I started noticing pretty early on (shortly after radahn) that my spells felt like they were hitting for a lot less than it seemed they should. I tried out some melee stuff (wasn't even bleed builds) and was hitting for much harder.

Sorceries and Incantations, while fun in general, don't scale nearly as well as melee. Especially because, unlike melee, Mages have a finite resource (FP) to kill with before they're required touch grace. Melee, on the other hand, never runs out of their offensive resource (Stamina).

Uhh, probably wrong with the scaling statement. Ive only killed Godrick with my mage build and I have figured out a way to get 400+ damage with the pebble at around 27 int and a meteor staff. Doing 500 with a full charge of carian great sword.

[Aetrion]

Originally posted by justfaded:

BS... sorcery builds get the same amount of vigor as all endgame builds. If anything, sorcery builds get viable sooner than say, quality or hybrid builds.

All this talk about mages being glass cannons is bs.

HP is not really relevant to determining how tough a character is in Elden Ring. What matters is whether or not you have the ability to strike quickly enough to exploit openings without opening yourself up, and if you have enough stamina to attack and defend.

Being a glass cannon is a lot more about whether your character just stands there waggling a stick for 2 seconds in the middle of a boss fight or whether you can immediately dodge after an attack, or attack after a dodge.