One of the worst co-op games (experiences)

[Tjorven]

I have the impression that the devs didn't really bother to make the main aspect of the game "online co-op" work/accaptable. (This game is not Robo quest, vampire survivers or Risk of Rain)
-No in game social system while also not providing a link/banner in game or on steam for the official communitiy server. It is a very basic and essential thing for people who are new to the game, genre or gaming as a whole.
-Me, friends and random people i played with experience not always but often enough laggs, rubberbanding etc. not matter how high or low the ping, the same goes for the distance etc.
-No server (lobby) browser
-Stif character animations
-There are no working bot/ai teammates
-Horrible wait times for matchmaking if you don't go out of your way to their almost dead, barely supported Discord server.

I personally would really like to see emotes and some sort of hub area/room like in V1/2, DT, H1/2, Deep Rock etc. if that's even possible.

Also yes there is the problem that already one person kills the whole lobby and nothing is left for the rest of the group but that's just how it is if they don't balance it or people make their own rules in private lobbys. I Think most of us don't like to be weaker and less powerfull so ye.

It's unfortunate that so many of you in the comments are simply in denial, ignorant, lazy, rude, and offended by your favorite game being criticized and shared so that it can be improved and lived up to its potential and beyond.

Anyway, i'll take the point's regardless :*

[Tjorven]

Originally posted by Lola:

-We don't need a social system.
-The lack of server browser is in fact a problem.
-We don't need a hub.
-I don't experience lag.
-Bot teammates are coming.
- https://discord.com/invite/nFhHmMw

You posting the Discord link in here wont solve the problem.
Why do you think "WE" don't need or would really profit from having a in game social system and hub area like in vermintide 1/2, Darktide, Deep rock galactic,Remnant 2, Helldivers 2,Dungeon Defenders 2 etc.
Oh and you having no lag, experiencing game/server issiues doens't say/mean anything or fixes the issiues for me, friends and people i played with :*

[Tjorven]

Originally posted by skydiamand:

-No emotes
-No real interaction between player characters

The social/cooperative aspect of the game, which it was heavily advertised as, feels plain and dispassionate overall, like it was intendet to be just a singleplayer game which you can also play with your friends if you like to.

[Saithis]

Nah, game is perfectly fine. You just need to get some friends to casually play with.
If you are looking for a group, try checking out the official discord server :)

About the lag: i don't have any lags while playing with friends. And having no hub is in case a good thing. This means you are not under the mercy of some totaly overloaded servers (like with Helldivers) to play the game.

[Tjorven]

Originally posted by Saithis:

Nah, game is perfectly fine. You just need to get some friends to casually play with.
If you are looking for a group, try checking out the official discord server :)

About the lag: i don't have any lags while playing with friends. And having no hub is in case a good thing. This means you are not under the mercy of some totaly overloaded servers (like with Helldivers) to play the game.

You have to conect to the servers anyway to be able to play the daily challenge, host or join someones game, load your achievements. The official discord is pretty much dead and i don't wanna play with a ping over 1k. Really sad to see how most players here don't wanna see their game improve to the better or live up to it's potential.

[nul]

Server browser is definitely something I say the game should have, every single time a matchmaking thread pops up lmao

[Mikiwi]

Originally posted by 931numbers:

Originally posted by Mikiwi:

You know, there are other games out there. this game works decent as it is, it's not that hard to work around the flaws, all it requires is a small bit of effort. But it seems like this is not a game for you. We're going in circles with this, but it's RNG. You can have a good or bad game.

So basically what you're admitting about the blatant balance and scaling issues in multiplayer where players become unable to play the game because someone else is doing everything for them, is that these players should:

1. Make greater effort than necessary to find specific people that won't screw them over from using deliberately intended but heavily problematic methods of playing, which reduces the number of people you can safely play with and will take a longer time to start runs, if they even find those people at all, or...
2. Don't play.

A really obvious alternative to those two options is to... fix the issue. Y'know, fixes? A thing that people should praise because it refines the gameplay experience into something more people can enjoy wholeheartedly, instead of just saying "Eh, the issue may or may not happen so it's fine".

So what are your suggestions to "fix" the issue? do please let me know what your thoughts are, as i'm sure it has something to do with scaling every enemy to each player, seperately. so you will never feel yourself get any stronger, nor weaker. It's a RNG roguelike, what else is there to say about this? Of course it's going to be unbalanced, as you can get things you don't want for your playstyle, etc. Honestly don't see a problem. Find a group of people you enjoy playing with and you're set, it's really not that difficult.

[931numbers]

Originally posted by Mikiwi:

So what are your suggestions to "fix" the issue? do please let me know what your thoughts are, as i'm sure it has something to do with scaling every enemy to each player, seperately. so you will never feel yourself get any stronger, nor weaker.

My suggestions? 3 simple steps.

1. Buff the weak stuff.
You know what I'm talking about. The stuff that you would only take if you had no better option or were doing a meme build.

Stuff like Glimmering, Dragonchaser, Star Devourer, Frenzied Shark, Tiger Cannon, Laser Gloves, Hidden Treasure, Giant Slayer, Fountain of Life, Mystic Mirror, Explosive Magazine, Enhanced On the House, Enhanced Elemental Convergence, Backpack Expansion, Eye of Providence, Royal Guard, Oppressor, and other pathetic things.

Give them a little boost to stats or refine their gimmicks so the bad RNG isn't so bad, to give people with bad RNG a better chance to catch up.

2. Nerf the strong stuff.
As above, so below. Just as the weak get a buff, the strong should get a nerf to counter it. This would further reduce the large gap between what is good and what isn't, further improving the chance for people with bad RNG to catch up.

Stuff like Iron Wing's ascensions, Demonlore, Deafening Mortar, Thunder Storm, Fire Enthusiast, Energy Sandals, Sanguine Relic, Magnetic Coil, Blazing Hoop, Realm of Corrosion, Dual-edge, Extravagant Consumption, many blessings, and other powerful things.

Now I'm not saying "slice their power in half and leave them for dead". No, some only need tiny reductions or a limit on their maximum power, nothing severe. They can still be stronger, just not as strong.

3. Absolutely crush the meta stuff.
There is no reason why we need +1000% damage buffs (plus extra sometimes), the ability to inflict every elemental effect at the drop of a hat (plus extra sometimes) or near guaranteed immortality (plus extra sometimes) just from picking 1 maybe 2 things. Enemies don't scale nearly as hard as these bonuses, and some things just bypass any enemy scaling entirely.

Things like this have been rampantly buffed and left unchecked. A simple balancing act with compensation buffs to something else wouldn't solve anything. As the game has received majority buffs over the years, it only makes sense that to rebalance things would require majority nerfs now.

Stuff like Spiritual Flame's ascensions, Astroforecast's ascensions, Emergency Function, Benevolence, Revitalization, Spirit Feline, Spore gemini, Painkiller, Overconsumption, Atomic Bomb, All or Nothing, Thunder & Glory, Pair of Us, Chromatic Magazine, the seasonal event bonus abilities that you can't even turn off, and other absurdly powerful things.

Many of these things give players the ability to crush every enemy instantly without a thought, or cause enemies to do so little that they might as well not be attacking at all, compared to if you didn't have them. It's mainly the "crush every enemy instantly" part that needs to be addressed, because that's exactly what would cause one player to do the work of an entire team while leaving everyone behind with nothing to do.

(And to address any potential responses to this by players saying that the game would be harder, they'd have less fun on the highest difficulty and the game would be ruined, etc. Well there are 12 difficulties you can play on. 9 of them give the same levels of power to players, but some are easier to beat. There are no downsides to picking any of the easier ones. If players are suddenly unable to have fun on the highest difficulties, just lower the difficulty to continue having fun. They won't need the ego boost of beating the hardest difficulty if they're just playing for fun after all.)

Originally posted by Mikiwi:

It's a RNG roguelike, what else is there to say about this? Of course it's going to be unbalanced, as you can get things you don't want for your playstyle, etc. Honestly don't see a problem. Find a group of people you enjoy playing with and you're set, it's really not that difficult.

It's an RNG rougelike yes. And yes all of them will have a certain amount of unbalanced things guaranteed. This is a good thing when done in small amounts because it means no build will ever feel the same as another, but you're also more free to experiment without rendering your efforts completely useless.

But there are limits to this being a good thing. The moment you make something completely overpowered where it can easily break the game, everything else will become completely useless in comparison. This doesn't encourage build diversity, it encourages players to stick exclusively to the good stuff and completely ignore everything else.

This is especially notable in a multiplayer setting like this game has where if you don't use the overpowered stuff you risk someone else doing it instead, rendering you as the completely useless thing in comparison. No, adding in extra effort just to find people who don't do this will never be a solution. No, it doesn't matter how little a problem you have with it. It is a player-forced workaround to an issue that shouldn't even exist in the first place.

[Mikiwi]

Originally posted by 931numbers:

Originally posted by Mikiwi:

So what are your suggestions to "fix" the issue? do please let me know what your thoughts are, as i'm sure it has something to do with scaling every enemy to each player, seperately. so you will never feel yourself get any stronger, nor weaker.

My suggestions? 3 simple steps.

1. Buff the weak stuff.
You know what I'm talking about. The stuff that you would only take if you had no better option or were doing a meme build.

Stuff like Glimmering, Dragonchaser, Star Devourer, Frenzied Shark, Tiger Cannon, Laser Gloves, Hidden Treasure, Giant Slayer, Fountain of Life, Mystic Mirror, Explosive Magazine, Enhanced On the House, Enhanced Elemental Convergence, Backpack Expansion, Eye of Providence, Royal Guard, Oppressor, and other pathetic things.

Give them a little boost to stats or refine their gimmicks so the bad RNG isn't so bad, to give people with bad RNG a better chance to catch up.

2. Nerf the strong stuff.
As above, so below. Just as the weak get a buff, the strong should get a nerf to counter it. This would further reduce the large gap between what is good and what isn't, further improving the chance for people with bad RNG to catch up.

Stuff like Iron Wing's ascensions, Demonlore, Deafening Mortar, Thunder Storm, Fire Enthusiast, Energy Sandals, Sanguine Relic, Magnetic Coil, Blazing Hoop, Realm of Corrosion, Dual-edge, Extravagant Consumption, many blessings, and other powerful things.

Now I'm not saying "slice their power in half and leave them for dead". No, some only need tiny reductions or a limit on their maximum power, nothing severe. They can still be stronger, just not as strong.

3. Absolutely crush the meta stuff.
There is no reason why we need +1000% damage buffs (plus extra sometimes), the ability to inflict every elemental effect at the drop of a hat (plus extra sometimes) or near guaranteed immortality (plus extra sometimes) just from picking 1 maybe 2 things. Enemies don't scale nearly as hard as these bonuses, and some things just bypass any enemy scaling entirely.

Things like this have been rampantly buffed and left unchecked. A simple balancing act with compensation buffs to something else wouldn't solve anything. As the game has received majority buffs over the years, it only makes sense that to rebalance things would require majority nerfs now.

Stuff like Spiritual Flame's ascensions, Astroforecast's ascensions, Emergency Function, Benevolence, Revitalization, Spirit Feline, Spore gemini, Painkiller, Overconsumption, Atomic Bomb, All or Nothing, Thunder & Glory, Pair of Us, Chromatic Magazine, the seasonal event bonus abilities that you can't even turn off, and other absurdly powerful things.

Many of these things give players the ability to crush every enemy instantly without a thought, or cause enemies to do so little that they might as well not be attacking at all, compared to if you didn't have them. It's mainly the "crush every enemy instantly" part that needs to be addressed, because that's exactly what would cause one player to do the work of an entire team while leaving everyone behind with nothing to do.

(And to address any potential responses to this by players saying that the game would be harder, they'd have less fun on the highest difficulty and the game would be ruined, etc. Well there are 12 difficulties you can play on. 9 of them give the same levels of power to players, but some are easier to beat. There are no downsides to picking any of the easier ones. If players are suddenly unable to have fun on the highest difficulties, just lower the difficulty to continue having fun. They won't need the ego boost of beating the hardest difficulty if they're just playing for fun after all.)

Originally posted by Mikiwi:

It's a RNG roguelike, what else is there to say about this? Of course it's going to be unbalanced, as you can get things you don't want for your playstyle, etc. Honestly don't see a problem. Find a group of people you enjoy playing with and you're set, it's really not that difficult.

It's an RNG rougelike yes. And yes all of them will have a certain amount of unbalanced things guaranteed. This is a good thing when done in small amounts because it means no build will ever feel the same as another, but you're also more free to experiment without rendering your efforts completely useless.

But there are limits to this being a good thing. The moment you make something completely overpowered where it can easily break the game, everything else will become completely useless in comparison. This doesn't encourage build diversity, it encourages players to stick exclusively to the good stuff and completely ignore everything else.

This is especially notable in a multiplayer setting like this game has where if you don't use the overpowered stuff you risk someone else doing it instead, rendering you as the completely useless thing in comparison. No, adding in extra effort just to find people who don't do this will never be a solution. No, it doesn't matter how little a problem you have with it. It is a player-forced workaround to an issue that shouldn't even exist in the first place.

You know what, I do agree with the suggestions, they sound great. Buffing the weaker stuff, make the stronger stuff a bit weaker sounds nicer. The nerf to Ironwing alone I agree with. (Not because of me hating players that play as the red panda, as she was the first and pretty much only character I played, I found it rather ridicilous that I could get downed 30+ times and be fine because my bud's got my back)

Either way, I am defeated in the RNG arguement, I still recommend having a friendgroup for this game. But, the ideas are good and I now hope they'll stumble across this thread and maybe add some of these as features.

Steam award for you <3

[Ruck]

I had a lot of fun playing this on Xbox gamepass with my son. Sadly it was never updated and removed from gamepass so we gave up on the game.

[Mr. September]

Originally posted by Tjorven GER:

-No in game social system

Yep. We don't have a way to make groups/guilds or anything of the sort (I wish we did). It's not a huge deal, but the bare-bones chat system is barely enough. At least we got some stickers. Maybe we'll even get emotes sometime. Imagine hitting the griddy in this game, lol.

Originally posted by Tjorven GER:

-No server browser

Still an issue. No clue why they are so stubborn with this one. Really makes me wonder if it's due to their incompetence or not. It's one of the biggest flaws of this game, especially if you don't have friends who live nearby and/or don't want to find people through a Discord server. Sometimes, people just want to grab a drink and play a run of Gunfire Reborn without having to look for people for 40 minutes.

You can't host a game without waiting for a solid 20 seconds, as well. That's a big deal if you have some people nearby and end up joining them repeatedly. Matchmaking is cancelled automatically after 40 minutes, as well. Should have been at least 60 or maybe even unlimited with the current lack of a server browser and the low player count between new DLC and content updates.

Originally posted by Tjorven GER:

-No hub area

Not a huge deal, but still a good point. The issue is, the game is entirely P2P as far as I'm aware, so a hub area (if you meant it in an MMO way) wouldn't work out unless the hub area is also hosted by the session owner. That means there would be latency if we had a hub.

Also, what good will a hub do? We don't have emotes or a reason to chat in the game unless you are dropping a scroll for someone specific. Hell, I had 1.5 hour runs and the only thing everyone said was "gg" at the ass-end of the run, lol. The game simply isn't well-structured around proper communication. A hub area, even though sounds good, would be a low priority addition.

Originally posted by Tjorven GER:

-Lag no matter how faar away the host is or player who joind you

Only ever had a handful of minor examples of this myself. As long as the latency shown in the game is lower than 100 ms, it works fine.

Originally posted by Tjorven GER:

-No bot teammates

Yes and no. The main issue is, you can't pick the bots yourself, but you can make your teammates be replaced by bots if they disconnect.

At least they got half of it right. Now we wait for the other half.

Originally posted by Tjorven GER:

-No link to the community discord server

Yeah. You have to use a search engine for that crap or ask someone else to hand you the link. What year is this? Even crappy indie titles with 5 peak player count have their Discord server linked in the main menu. This game doesn't list the Discord link anywhere, unless they added it recently.

TL;DR: OP is right. Mostly, at least.

[Smokey Bacon]

I never understood why people wanna play these type of games with randoms. Risk of rain 2 and this one are the only roguelikes I play coop and I never felt the need to play with randoms. They can ruin your games in so many ways, I'd rather play alone. It's a roguelike after all, most of them are solo

[Mr. September]

Originally posted by Smokey Bacon:

I never understood why people wanna play these type of games with randoms.

Off the top of my head, I can think of these:

1. Different (or new) people, different (or new) experiences. Sure, the experience can be worse and people usually tend to remember the bad examples more than the good, but how else can you have more variety? Winning all the time by yourself or with friends would get stale eventually. Sometimes, failing with randoms is more fun/challenging than winning with friends.

2. Making new friends. I actually made quite a few of them by playing with and talking to strangers. Most of them, I met in Dark Souls 3, Monster Hunter World or Vermintide 1. You eventually make a few friends if you are at least a little friendly yourself. Playing with random people is a pretty decent way of making new friends in a spontaneous manner, if you interact with them. Hell, I even used to play RoR2 with randoms, and I'm pretty damn sure I still have some of the friends I made in that game on my friends list, even though I no longer play it due to multiple reasons.

On top of all that, two of my generous friends I met in Dark Souls 3 gifted me some of my favorite games of all time. The first one being Monster Hunter World, and the other being Nioh 2. Is this what people call "friends with benefits"? Huh. Oh, wait, I think Dark Souls 3 itself was a gift as well. From a friend I met in some other game. I think I forgor which one, though .

I even added a few people in Gunfire Reborn, even though it's a massive chore since the Player List doesn't work for this game, and we had to use the friend code thingy to add each other. I'm sure I would have received and sent more requests if it worked properly.

3. Building a group/community from scratch. Basically an extension of point 2. If you make enough friends and your friends also are friends with the same people (or you introduce them), you can form a group or guild. I have two good examples for this. The first one is Vermintide 1 again (we got a group called "Rat Busters"), and the second is (surprisingly) Dark Souls 3. Founding a guild in Dark Souls 3's ban server was quite the ride too, not gonna lie. Good ol' times. I think that was in 2018.

Anyway, long story short, even if you don't see the point, there are some really good incentives for playing with randoms. Yes, even coop roguelite titles, since you can team up with strangers. Today's strangers can easily become tomorrow's friends, if you give them a fair chance.

[418我是一个茶壶!]

There's no server browser because the game uses their own cloud platform, you are literally playing on their proprietary servers which do not support std value protocol.

[Nodoka]

Why do you people even want to waste your time playing with other people that will only slow you down?
Please dont use the "social" aspect of the game as a excuse to justify playing co-op when there minimum to zero interaction in it anyway.
Go outside or play hello kitty online if you want to be social.

As for the "i cant find their discord" crap just type in gunfire reborn on discord.. How slow are you?

[Borko]

Originally posted by 931numbers:

You forgot this one:
-Builds so powerful that a lone player can rush ahead and beat everything, leaving other players with nothing to do.

This is why I only played co-op a couple times and then never again.
One player ALWAYS gets so powerful that the other player is completely useless. It's not fun to be actually trying while someone is playing tiger and instakiling everything and carving out giant swathes of enemies in milliseconds.