Self defense is dishonorable

[Aisar]

I'm riding by a guy's camp, he mouths off to me, pulls a gun, I draw and live and get a hit to my honor. Shameful display on my part, should have let him kill me.

[Twitchey]

Escrito originalmente por Fuzzyballs01:

seriously? you can murder entire towns for dishonour and hit max honour just from greeting people or feeding your horse
there is really nothing in-depth about it, it's as basic as it can get

Yeah that's why I said it could use more depth, or are you talking to the OP? Because he just said he blocked you, I suppose he will see this post in my quoting of it though.

[|ASTRO| mainbain]

karma and reputation mechanics in all games are usually off or wrong like in real life.

[in]

Well it's not really off. This game is rather violent. People get assaulted, robbed, kidnapped, tortured, raped, skinned etc all over the place. And when some lonesome dude sets up the camp in wilderness and sees another armed feller strolling in, it's kinda normal reaction that they want them to leave. And if you don't do that fast enough they pull out the gun and eventually start shooting. When you have option to leave or kill the guy it's quite logical that you lose honor by doing latter.

[Twitchey]

Escrito originalmente por in:

When you have option to leave or kill the guy it's quite logical that you lose honor by doing latter.

Yeah pretty much, I doubt he would have been able to kill the OP, and the OP rolled into his camp unannounced, and considering every camper that I ran into that wasn't friendly gave me a chance to leave unless it glitched out, there's that too.

[BlazeD]

Escrito originalmente por Aisar:

If you're referring to my situation it was the honor system, I lost honor for defending myself from someone pointing a gun at me. But yeah the honor system isn't 100%. I still like it though.

No. You lost honor for killing when you shoulda not killed. Provoking somebody then killing them for it is murder, yea.

[White Knight]

Escrito originalmente por in:

Next time ride away.

OP, what you described is delusional. That wasn't "self-defense", it was murder.

Some guy sets up a campsite in the woods, gets woken up by some heavily armed bandit riding into his camp uninvited, after being warned more than once, the bandit refuses to leave, so the camper defends himself... bandit murders another innocent person and gets a bounty.

Of course the honour system is flawed - it's a video game. You are the "flaw" in the scenario you described, however.

Here's a helpful suggestion - just assume that npcs have the right to defend themselves from being trodden on by horses, having people fire guns near them, whenever they feel threatened or menaced, and anytime someone trespasses in their space.

[Cpl. Burden R 3294]

Escrito originalmente por Parrhesiastes:

just assume that npcs have the right to defend themselves whenever they feel threatened or menaced

That's not how self defence works. You can't say "oh I felt frightened because he was proximate so I had the right to blow his head off". If you approach an NPC with weapons drawn, fair does, you've threatened them with a weapon. Just being nearby and "they don't like it" isn't a crime. There are even NPCs in game that comment on this ("My cousin shot a man on his property, and they sent him down for it. That's not right! If someone is on your property, you should be able to do what you like with them") which as the comment suggests, shows that no, you can't just blast people away because they are nearby, even in 1899. The game itself lampshades that reasonable force rules exist. (probably a cutting little jibe from the British devs ;) )

Even in modern Oklahoma, you have to give them three warnings when tresspassing. And that's tresspass. Not "random camp in the middle of nowhere"

But unless you want some kind of robust legal simulator where you have to defend yourself in court, with accurate interpretations of the laws of 1899 of rural America in the states that are being represented (roughly), then you have to say right, well what kind of game environment are they trying to portray?

Clearly they don't want a "GTA but horses" vibe, what with the permanent (even after death) bounties and the honour system, so, what they're actually trying for is a somewhat realistic portrayal of life at the time. Surprise, gunfights were actually rare, that's why they were such a big deal when they happened. This "oh people were murdered every day and it was lawless" trope comes from 1950s westerns.

So, fine, have NPCs that seem to be strung out and twitchy the moment you so much as sneeze near them (a sherrif that goes mental when you're in essentially a cutscene after bringing back a bounty, and then throws a $10 bounty on *you* for...nothing? in retrospect that was hilarious) fine, but then punish the player further by saying "ooooh bad baby for firing back". as Twitchey says, what is the Honour System supposed to represent? Is it personal "I feels bad"? so, it applies even if there are no witnesses, or is it merely what people think about you? As currently it seems to be like the Fallout Karma system (another system I never understood in it's setting either), and it's implemented very haphazardly.

That was a much longer post than I intended.

[Tashnaladar]

and interesting read tho Cpl. Burden. i didn't know Oklahoma state law worked that way. ty for that post!

[Cpl. Burden R 3294]

I mean that's the theory. Its a bit like RDR2 actually; if they're dead and there are no witnesses, who is to argue that you warned them the right number of times or not? ;)

Crazy place, glad I moved home :D but anyway.

[ant_sh]

Escrito originalmente por Aisar:

I'm riding by a guy's camp, he mouths off to me, pulls a gun, I draw and live and get a hit to my honor. Shameful display on my part, should have let him kill me.

If campers are hunters (not bandits, night folk or other savages) and you kill them in the interaction you will definitely lose honor.

In general campers don't like strangers and will tell you to go away. There are exceptions and you will be explicitly notified that you are welcome to join.

[Wabbajack]

Escrito originalmente por Aisar:

I'm riding by a guy's camp, he mouths off to me, pulls a gun, I draw and live and get a hit to my honor. Shameful display on my part, should have let him kill me.

So you go to somebody's camp, he didn't like you, he warned you that he will kill you if you don't leave, you didn't listen to his warning and he started to shoot you, then you killed him, get a negative honor and proceeds to complain that you get a negative honor. What you do is basically "not a self defense", why? Because you invade his personal space, the guy at the camp is actually did self defense because he's protecting his camp and himself. How'd you like if some stranger comes to your house uninvited and staying even though you ask them to leave?

[Cpl. Burden R 3294]

I *think* I covered that "a camp in the middle of nowhere" isn't someone's territory, and if they choose to shoot first, they're acting in aggression. "Invasion of personal space" =/= Self-defence. You can't shoot someone because they got too close to you and you felt tetchy.

Not to mention, half the time you "de-escalate" and say to calm down, go and walk away, and the NPC then shoot you in the back. Hardly the act of self-defence.

But as I said, short of some kind of robust legal system, I guess this is as close as we're going to get, plus its not clear what the Honour System is even supposed to be. Personal self belief or a Reputation System.

[Wabbajack]

Escrito originalmente por Cpl. Burden R 3294:

I *think* I covered that "a camp in the middle of nowhere" isn't someone's territory, and if they choose to shoot first, they're acting in aggression. "Invasion of personal space" =/= Self-defence. You can't shoot someone because they got too close to you and you felt tetchy.

I kinda disagree with this. Okay now try to imagine you are camping somewhere in the mountains or anywhere in the wild, while you're minding your own business there's a stranger carrying a gun or any kind of weapons, you don't know what will he do, maybe he'll rob and kill you maybe he don't and you don't like his presence in your camp, so what'll you do? (Furthermore the current situation at that time, robbery and crime is "pretty common")

[Revalopod]

Escrito originalmente por Fuzzyballs01:

I'm not even gonna read that reply

Ok troll. I'll block you and I request you to do the same, because I don't want to see you on any thread I'll potentially make in the future.
You say making a discussion is pointless, but your replies are the only worthless things here. No discussion or real argument, just ad hominem and generally being disrespectful to everyone. Get off the internet and try being a decent human being.

[Cpl. Burden R 3294]

Escrito originalmente por Wabbajack:

Escrito originalmente por Cpl. Burden R 3294:

I *think* I covered that "a camp in the middle of nowhere" isn't someone's territory, and if they choose to shoot first, they're acting in aggression. "Invasion of personal space" =/= Self-defence. You can't shoot someone because they got too close to you and you felt tetchy.

I kinda disagree with this. Okay now try to imagine you are camping somewhere in the mountains or anywhere in the wild, while you're minding your own business there's a stranger carrying a gun or any kind of weapons, you don't know what will he do, maybe he'll rob and kill you maybe he don't and you don't like his presence in your camp, so what'll you do? (Furthermore the current situation at that time, robbery and crime is "pretty common")

Lawman approaches.
"What happened here?"
"I shot him"
"Why did you shoot this man?"
"He got too close to me and wouldn't leave"
"Did he threaten you?"
"No he just kept saying to calm down, even though I had drew a gun on him unprovoked"
"I see. I think you need to come with me Sir"

I get what you're saying. I can understand why someone would be on edge in such a situation. But you can't call it "self defence" if you draw a gun on someone and blow them away when they weren't threatening you with a weapon or with any violence at all.

"Being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥" is not actually a crime. Nor is refusing to leave someones campsite. Drawing a gun and threatening someone is, plus you just raised the stakes from "unfriendly argument" to "life or death". Better be sure you can back that up.

I mean we've seen that in game. How many times have we as players walked up to an NPCs fire, and we were just poking about, not meaning any harm, but the jittery buggers fired on us. Now what do we do? Well we have to either run, or shoot back. They raised the stakes, and all they have is a poxy Colt and you've got god knows what arsenal at your disposal.

They probably shouldn't have fired on your and just let you wander past and said "howdy mister" to you. Pretty damned stupid to raise it to "leave or i'll kill you" when they're in zero position to actually carry that out.