Thoughts on Vantage

[Mr_Zayder]

Hey there, quick thoughts about Vantage :

Her ability, while convenient could be slightly better by improving the bat's speed and charging the jump faster.
Another idea could have a flight mode on the bat that keeps it constantly 40m ahead and leave an option to quickly move, so you don't have to relocate it in front of you every 5s.

Her ult is absolutely garbage. It's the weakest sniper in the game and is useless. If I have to bother hitting an enemy 3 times with a sniper, i'm gonna take a charge rifle / sentinel AND a legend with a useful ult.

The ult could :
- Highlight the target for the team for 10s same way Seer does (displaying HP/Shield)
- Do more damage (it's ludicrous to do barely more damage than a lame ass longbow), a 3030 with a skullpiercer does more than that.
- be hitscan
- have more ammo
- charge faster
(not all these at once naturally)

Legend is somewhat okay, but considering how they let newcastle be the least picked legend on his season, Vantage looks like another bottom tier legend.
So far, you're better off with a pathfinder and a sniper than vantage (which breaks my heart as a sniper enjoyer)

EDIT : Another option could be to have ultimate accelerant recharge 35% of the TOTAL ammo. So they become somewhat less useless and can act as "ammo pack" for the ult.

[Church.exe]

Publicado originalmente por average player:

Publicado originalmente por Church.exe:

honestly, having used her a bit, I think I'd buy the aim assist. Maybe I'm just a better shot with her gun but it DEFINITELY feels more reliable. Also, while you are right about the debuff being kind of short, I think you're ignoring her real use. Her weapon fills a fundamentally different niche to other sniper rifles, it's mean to be an oppressive suppression weapon, not a direct damage weapon. Yes, it doesn't do a ton in and of itself, but it's value comes from the fact that it DID push someone into cover for 10 seconds, it's a tool of suppression rather than lethality. (it can definitely be lethal from my time playing her, but it's primary use is suppression.)

Depends on how you use her sniper. I use it for lethality. Wait for one poor soul to leave all cover and absolutely demolish him when running back to cover. Then use her gadget to push with rest of team and smoke the last 2 and prey we don’t get third partied

It definitely can fill a lethality niche as well, but my real claim is that people are EXPECTING lethality, instead of utility, and I think that's why many people believe her to be underpowered.

The issue of course with people saying she is underpowered is that she might get buffed, and since she is actually quite balanced, that buff will make her overpowered, then people will ask for her to be nerfed because even though she FEELS balanced for what they expect, they keep getting demolished by her, and now what was once a coherent character is just an absolute mess of buffs and nerfs that don't really work together at all because balance isn't a linear scale that you just move along.

[✦𝒱𝒶𝓅𝑜𝓇]

Publicado originalmente por Church.exe:

Publicado originalmente por average player:

Depends on how you use her sniper. I use it for lethality. Wait for one poor soul to leave all cover and absolutely demolish him when running back to cover. Then use her gadget to push with rest of team and smoke the last 2 and prey we don’t get third partied

It definitely can fill a lethality niche as well, but my real claim is that people are EXPECTING lethality, instead of utility, and I think that's why many people believe her to be underpowered.

The issue of course with people saying she is underpowered is that she might get buffed, and since she is actually quite balanced, that buff will make her overpowered, then people will ask for her to be nerfed because even though she FEELS balanced for what they expect, they keep getting demolished by her, and now what was once a coherent character is just an absolute mess of buffs and nerfs that don't really work together at all because balance isn't a linear scale that you just move along.

So many this.

The reactive buffs and nerfs that happen to legends usually hurts, not helps the meta. Not always, but usually.

[Mr_Zayder]

Publicado originalmente por Church.exe:

Publicado originalmente por Mr_Zayder:

I'd like the source on the soft aim assist, genuinely curious.
And when it comes to knocking off a purple shield, it's always the same debate.

A sentinel will do it in too.
2 bullets of her ult = 150 with 2 body shots
Sentinel is 140.

The damage buff lasts only 10s, which is exactly the time someone needs to get cover + shield battery, and your back to not having the debuff.

They should increase the debuff timer to 20s, then people would have to be more careful on their move even after shielding. Right now, the action to repare the damages done is the same duration as the debuff, it's laughable.

honestly, having used her a bit, I think I'd buy the aim assist. Maybe I'm just a better shot with her gun but it DEFINITELY feels more reliable. Also, while you are right about the debuff being kind of short, I think you're ignoring her real use. Her weapon fills a fundamentally different niche to other sniper rifles, it's mean to be an oppressive suppression weapon, not a direct damage weapon. Yes, it doesn't do a ton in and of itself, but it's value comes from the fact that it DID push someone into cover for 10 seconds, it's a tool of suppression rather than lethality. (it can definitely be lethal from my time playing her, but it's primary use is suppression.)

The only reason it pushes someone into cover is, when they get hit the 2nd time (so they got 150dmg), not after the 1st shot applying the debuff.

There are so many vantages right it's the typical chicken fight of "Who will hit the other 2 times before they run into cover". it's never after the 1st bullet they rush into cover.

The debuff is barely an inconvenience/ seldomly useful.

Either it could tag the enemy hit like a Seer scan but for 5s (so the info about health is shared with the team for pushing, and she's already kind of a data-gatherer), or they could extend the debuff's duration. Or any bullet hit could charge 50% of the next bullet, so it rewards good snipers (and making it 7 bullets at best, which isn't broken).

Feels like there's a few non-broken ways to make it slightly more interesting. We really need a break in the meta Seer-Valk-whatever Octane/Wraith

[Church.exe]

Publicado originalmente por Mr_Zayder:

Publicado originalmente por Church.exe:

honestly, having used her a bit, I think I'd buy the aim assist. Maybe I'm just a better shot with her gun but it DEFINITELY feels more reliable. Also, while you are right about the debuff being kind of short, I think you're ignoring her real use. Her weapon fills a fundamentally different niche to other sniper rifles, it's mean to be an oppressive suppression weapon, not a direct damage weapon. Yes, it doesn't do a ton in and of itself, but it's value comes from the fact that it DID push someone into cover for 10 seconds, it's a tool of suppression rather than lethality. (it can definitely be lethal from my time playing her, but it's primary use is suppression.)

The only reason it pushes someone into cover is, when they get hit the 2nd time (so they got 150dmg), not after the 1st shot applying the debuff.

There are so many vantages right it's the typical chicken fight of "Who will hit the other 2 times before they run into cover". it's never after the 1st bullet they rush into cover.

The debuff is barely an inconvenience/ seldomly useful.

Either it could tag the enemy hit like a Seer scan but for 5s (so the info about health is shared with the team for pushing, and she's already kind of a data-gatherer), or they could extend the debuff's duration. Or any bullet hit could charge 50% of the next bullet, so it rewards good snipers (and making it 7 bullets at best, which isn't broken).

Feels like there's a few non-broken ways to make it slightly more interesting. We really need a break in the meta Seer-Valk-whatever Octane/Wraith

not sure what rank you've been playing in there mate, but I can reliably use it as a tool to push people into cover without firing a single round

[Mr_Zayder]

Publicado originalmente por Church.exe:

not sure what rank you've been playing in there mate, but I can reliably use it as a tool to push people into cover without firing a single round

Well Congrats, you're a pog champ predator-trail pro gamer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But i'd be curious how you alone, push a team camping a rooftop/hill on your own with just her very easy to spot jump and without shooting a bullet. You must have a very mean death stare.

For the rest of the plebians, some more thoughts into her would be nice.

[✦𝒱𝒶𝓅𝑜𝓇]

Shes brand new, I'd give it a little time for people to figure out awesome strats with her.

So far, I have definitely seen the funny laser be used to move people around many times already. I also have seen people completely oblivious to funny laser while getting hit by bullets lmao. I also play a lot of pubs, so.....

I think funny laser cool so far, let's see how it develops over at least a season before making crazy judgement.

I remember when this game first came out and people screamed "what bloodhound!?!?!? a character that literally gives you wall hacks? there is NO WAY anyone will learn to play around a character with a skill like that!!"

Then people learned to play around other people's movement, aim, and ability skills... something that a lot of people find enjoyable in this game.

And now half the roster has some form of "unfair advantage" in their kit.

Go figure

[JKjoker]

Publicado originalmente por monkeu:

Shes brand new, I'd give it a little time for people to figure out awesome strats with her.

So far, I have definitely seen the funny laser be used to move people around many times already. I also have seen people completely oblivious to funny laser while getting hit by bullets lmao. I also play a lot of pubs, so.....

I think funny laser cool so far, let's see how it develops over at least a season before making crazy judgement.

I remember when this game first came out and people screamed "what bloodhound!?!?!? a character that literally gives you wall hacks? there is NO WAY anyone will learn to play around a character with a skill like that!!"

Then people learned to play around other people's movement, aim, and ability skills... something that a lot of people find enjoyable in this game.

And now half the roster has some form of "unfair advantage" in their kit.

Go figure

Bloodhound SUCKED when the game was released, his scan left static shadows of the enemies at the moment of the scan and caused more confusion than anything else. Then they changed it to show the enemies true location for a few secs, THEN they greately increased the scan range and THEN they reduced the scan time because at that point he really was pretty broken.

Bloodhound is exactly an example of a legend that had to be buffed a LOT to become useful, there was no "learning to use him" phase, there was no initial outrage about his wallhacking, it SUCKED

Your comment makes me wonder if you even played the game on release

[Church.exe]

Publicado originalmente por Mr_Zayder:

Publicado originalmente por Church.exe:

not sure what rank you've been playing in there mate, but I can reliably use it as a tool to push people into cover without firing a single round

Well Congrats, you're a pog champ predator-trail pro gamer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But i'd be curious how you alone, push a team camping a rooftop/hill on your own with just her very easy to spot jump and without shooting a bullet. You must have a very mean death stare.

For the rest of the plebians, some more thoughts into her would be nice.

ah yes, the mountains of skill required to point a laser pointer. You should see me with my cats, I'm a right John Wick. Or, y'know, maybe pointing a laser isn't really a skill game and your just wrong, that's also an option. Oh who am I kidding, you? wrong? Nah, couldn't be, I must be flexing my pro laser aiming skills.

[Mr_Zayder]

Publicado originalmente por Church.exe:

Publicado originalmente por Mr_Zayder:

Well Congrats, you're a pog champ predator-trail pro gamer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But i'd be curious how you alone, push a team camping a rooftop/hill on your own with just her very easy to spot jump and without shooting a bullet. You must have a very mean death stare.

For the rest of the plebians, some more thoughts into her would be nice.

ah yes, the mountains of skill required to point a laser pointer. You should see me with my cats, I'm a right John Wick. Or, y'know, maybe pointing a laser isn't really a skill game and your just wrong, that's also an option. Oh who am I kidding, you? wrong? Nah, couldn't be, I must be flexing my pro laser aiming skills.

Sooo, you alone, scare a team of 3pax (allegedly Plat/Diamond/Master/Preda players) into going behind cover and camping there, without peeking at your team just because they see your Ult's laser...? That doesn't work much beyond Silver when people aren't worried as long as they don't actually take damages. Beside, I wonder who is just scared of the laser knowing :
1- It will do at best 75dmg as a headshot, which is unlikely
2- They can spot you easily, take cover from your position and have all the time in the world to shield back your 50dmg and let the ridiculously short 10s debuff go.

Let me guess, you also win 1v3 when you use Mirage's ult because the enemies are genuinely lost ?

[IzzyFizzyDoo]

Publicado originalmente por Muschko-Alfons:

Just a copy paste from the other thread i commented.

Vantage is so bad. The passive is Like ????. Just use the scope?

The tactical always gives you away. When i see the bat i know vantage is in a 50m Radius of it and you can spot it from like 500m away with 1x scope.

Ultimate is cool but that massive Laser beam gives you even more away than the tactical. I also feel like Most people havent realized the fact that you have a massive laser beam revealing you position.

Pickrate gonna be like 1.5-2.5% soon

doesnt the scope scan? i think her passive is having scan abilities in scope

[✦𝒱𝒶𝓅𝑜𝓇]

Publicado originalmente por JKjoker:

Publicado originalmente por monkeu:

Shes brand new, I'd give it a little time for people to figure out awesome strats with her.

So far, I have definitely seen the funny laser be used to move people around many times already. I also have seen people completely oblivious to funny laser while getting hit by bullets lmao. I also play a lot of pubs, so.....

I think funny laser cool so far, let's see how it develops over at least a season before making crazy judgement.

I remember when this game first came out and people screamed "what bloodhound!?!?!? a character that literally gives you wall hacks? there is NO WAY anyone will learn to play around a character with a skill like that!!"

Then people learned to play around other people's movement, aim, and ability skills... something that a lot of people find enjoyable in this game.

And now half the roster has some form of "unfair advantage" in their kit.

Go figure

Bloodhound SUCKED when the game was released, his scan left static shadows of the enemies at the moment of the scan and caused more confusion than anything else. Then they changed it to show the enemies true location for a few secs, THEN they greately increased the scan range and THEN they reduced the scan time because at that point he really was pretty broken.

Bloodhound is exactly an example of a legend that had to be buffed a LOT to become useful, there was no "learning to use him" phase, there was no initial outrage about his wallhacking, it SUCKED

Your comment makes me wonder if you even played the game on release

Even in bloodhound's less good initial state, yes there were still trolls like you who complained.

I wonder if you've ever played this game before kek

If you think bloodhound was completely useless before all of those buffs, yeah I do wonder.....

No no you're right, we need some crazy insane reactive changes that don't bring into account any other balance changes. good plan

"The new legend has been out less than a week, instead of learning to play her let me demand immediate and serious change, so an entire game can conform to my needs"

If you really just want to hang out in a rat spot on a mountain all game and snipe without a lazer, why not just play any other legend and just carry around a sniper?

[Thaoran]

Publicado originalmente por Mr_Zayder:

Hey there, quick thoughts about Vantage :

Her ability, while convenient could be slightly better by improving the bat's speed and charging the jump faster.
Another idea could have a flight mode on the bat that keeps it constantly 40m ahead and leave an option to quickly move, so you don't have to relocate it in front of you every 5s.

Her ult is absolutely garbage. It's the weakest sniper in the game and is useless. If I have to bother hitting an enemy 3 times with a sniper, i'm gonna take a charge rifle / sentinel AND a legend with a useful ult.

The ult could :
- Highlight the target for the team for 10s same way Seer does (displaying HP/Shield)
- Do more damage (it's ludicrous to do barely more damage than a lame ass longbow), a 3030 with a skullpiercer does more than that.
- be hitscan
- have more ammo
- charge faster
(not all these at once naturally)

Legend is somewhat okay, but considering how they let newcastle be the least picked legend on his season, Vantage looks like another bottom tier legend.
So far, you're better off with a pathfinder and a sniper than vantage (which breaks my heart as a sniper enjoyer)

EDIT : Another option could be to have ultimate accelerant recharge 35% of the TOTAL ammo. So they become somewhat less useless and can act as "ammo pack" for the ult.

[Mr_Zayder]

Publicado originalmente por Thaoran:

What a fine and valuable opinion, you really uplifted the conversation.
Thanks for your """contribution""", apparently it's as deep as you're able to articulate, so we won't ask for more from you.

[Church.exe]

Publicado originalmente por Mr_Zayder:

Publicado originalmente por Church.exe:

ah yes, the mountains of skill required to point a laser pointer. You should see me with my cats, I'm a right John Wick. Or, y'know, maybe pointing a laser isn't really a skill game and your just wrong, that's also an option. Oh who am I kidding, you? wrong? Nah, couldn't be, I must be flexing my pro laser aiming skills.

Sooo, you alone, scare a team of 3pax (allegedly Plat/Diamond/Master/Preda players) into going behind cover and camping there, without peeking at your team just because they see your Ult's laser...? That doesn't work much beyond Silver when people aren't worried as long as they don't actually take damages. Beside, I wonder who is just scared of the laser knowing :
1- It will do at best 75dmg as a headshot, which is unlikely
2- They can spot you easily, take cover from your position and have all the time in the world to shield back your 50dmg and let the ridiculously short 10s debuff go.

Let me guess, you also win 1v3 when you use Mirage's ult because the enemies are genuinely lost ?

yes, because people are going to willingly peak a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sniper rifle that they can visibly see is pointed at where they are going to peak. Once again, what ranks are you playing in here mate, because even in casual lobbies people are smarter than what you're describing. On a first shot it does at least 50 damage, meaning either a full two shield cells or a half wasted shield battery, if you try to rotate somewhere else you're also opening yourself up to a follow up 100 damage shot putting you at 50, but even if you just peak your still wasting healing items for no reason since you have to acquire a target whereas the vantage as to pull the trigger and you're likely using a rifle or something akin since relatively few people run snipers so you cant even get any worthwhile damage on them. Your just saying "peak" like it's some magical and mystical win button, but at range, when suppressed, with likely low-mid range weaponry, and limited healing items, that ain't going to happen.