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There's already Melting Tackle... you'd suggest something more like Melting Array instead? Could be a bit too OP imo.
Something like "Dancing Skulls" wouldn't be bad, much like "Dancing Knives" for Lim & Oros.
Eh, almost sounds like you're asking for a whole different Aspect — one that makes Melinoe resemble her brother in a rather... bizarre way, given the nature of Mel's cast vs. Zag's cast. Also, given some of the other cast-throwing stuff in the game (Lightning Lance, Glowing Coal, Howling Soul), I have my doubts about this becoming a thing.
Personally I don't utilize omega attacks on Mel aspect at all except to activate Huntress. Even WITH fetching array wide grin is a huge drop off in dps and actively hurts any build. Wide grin can end runs in fairly low fear also. Possessed array is the only time I will build for omega centered abilities, but this is only if the first hammer of a run is possessed array.
There is melting tackle, yes, but as mentioned Mel tends to hyper focus attack and Medea special. Even if offered I will always take hammers to boost attack. The dps boost from pumping attack outweighs any armor shredding. Armor shredding has zero benefit against enemies without armor i.e. bosses. So I firmly believe, no, it would not be op and I find the pierce idea more appealing than armor shredding. We may have butted heads in other convos, but I have zero issues with armor levels as they are in game. I have tested various dps builds (mostly skulls) where armor just doesn't slow me down nor do I insta pick boons or hammers that utilize that mechanic and outright ignore it most runs unless there simply is no better option. If playing Mel skulls any special focused hammer to me is a forced choice i.e. all 3 are special related.
Personally I love cast throwing. Hades' is also irrelevant if doing a surface run. Because of the fact lightning lance and glowing coal are tied to Zeus and Hestia respectively I would love the idea of the mechanic being available to any build or combination of gods.
You don't like that hammer, and that's fine. Not all hammers will or should work in every situation. But it's really far, far from being garbage. Especially on Medea, which is weird that you put it that way. Apart from making Medea much more user-friendly not having to click nearly as much, it also speeds up your loading significantly (especially if you've got the extra skulls). It's a huge boost in DPS if you aren't running away from everything between each blast. Wide grin has its downsides, mainly that it shortens your effective range somewhat, but it usually significantly increases your DPS for any aspect at closer range. Not surprising, since it is the prototypical video game shotgun upgrade.
This is actually an excellent point I overlooked because I was only thinking about half of the equation which is the spread launch, so thank you for pointing it out.
While I do understand what it is going for (i.e. shotgun) no matter which way you slice it it is simply a drop in dps for aspect of Mel. It completely nullifies the damage boost per skull and it slows down how fast she can fire each volley. I don't think a hammer should erase the utility for a particular aspect. Even with fetching array it is dps loss and I have tested this a few times. Slower launches and no increase of dmg per shot just sucks and can tank a run. Not only this but it also completely nullifies Hephaestus' legendary as well which boosts Mel aspect into truly awesome damage levels on basic attack. Her single skull launch speed just completely outpaces wide grin and if you add bolstered and fetching it is simply different leagues in numbers.
My counter proposal since obviously loading all skulls at once for Medea is actually insanely good is to make it Medea specific, and cut out the spread shot since the auto load is the desired part. Rename it auto-loader, or full clip, etc and problem solved.
Volley with Mel skulls, furies, huntress full mp: 290
Same volley with not full mp: 406
Same volley in cast not full mp: 476
Wide grin: 200
Wide grin huntress: 280
Wide grin huntress furies: 328
So yeah, I think fixing the aspects for the skulls are much more important than fixing the hammers.
You 100% lose the damage boost for Mel aspect. Wiki states this as well.
Also hugely disagree and Mel aspect is my favorite by far. I edited my post with the numbers above. Mel aspect is fine it is the hammer that sucks and doesn't work well for it. Heph legendary also boosts rank Vs +12 per skull to a whopping +21 per skull. These are fantastic numbers. Mel aspect while less popular than Medea is still in top ten world wide for speed runs and works just swell at 55 fear.
Check numbers above. I have tested this. Wide grin is a net loss of dps full stop. It nullifies Mel aspect entirely and by extension Hephaestus legendary.
Edit: Bolstered array: 492 WG vs 863 no WG. Add Heph nearly doubling the bonus and it is, as mentioned, entire leagues apart.
All good. We are in EA after all and with everything in flux conversations like this are important if we want to see the most amount of positive changes all around by 1.0. Funny fact is Warsong actually boosted skulls to 5 ammo, but it was so OP they quickly nerfed it back to 4 the next week with patch 8.
I try my best to keep things strictly related to provable facts with stats and numbers. That being said I can be wrong or forget things sometimes, so your comment already had me shift my opinion from "firmly remove this" to "make it Medea only".
I still think a ricochet hammer would be a good practical effect, but it could be Mel only or maybe be useful for the upcoming hidden aspect.
Persephone still seems bad as well or at least just a strange focus. I don't even know if I have seen anyone praise it much if at all.
The thing about making it Medea only is that it's still quite a useful hammer in many cases before you get aspect of Mel up to a moderately high level. Think of unleveled weapons, and what effect it would have. It takes a pretty significant time to level them up, too, so most players will be playing with the lower level stats. I've had multiple save files up in the 40-50 day range, am probably pretty far ahead of the average player's resources (I usually beat Chronos by at latest day 2, and am a natural min-maxer), and I still generally only had 4-5 aspects maxed by that time, with a few points in others. But there were still some at base level even then.
So I think it would be better to leave it in as is, and just let people not take it when it's not appropriate. Basically half of all hammers are useless on a given run, anyway. It's very rare that people will take one hammer for attack and one for special if they have the choice. So they're already used to seeing "useless" hammers in runs, sometimes even for all 3 choices. I would have probably been more on the side of drastically changing it before the last change to it, but I think it's a very good change, and along with the other skull changes is quite viable and useful in the cases it needs to be.
EDIT: And I can also add, for anybody using the Omega attack, wide grin is pretty much an automatic take. It instantly makes the Omega attack do 4-6x the damage for the same mana, even though it is a little clumsy and you generally want to be in pretty short range.
No, it isn't. I stated this above and posted numbers, but you don't appear to be grasping the full context of what those numbers mean. Those wide grin numbers posted are against BASE dps. 1 hammer vs no hammer. In other words you actively lower your dps negatively. Any other attack or special hammer will literally only boost this gap and why throw away a hammer choice to lower dps? It is a bad choice period. Your best case argument for lower ranks is essentially it sucks less. Rank 1 has no bonus so you break even. As soon as you level skulls once you are choosing to reduce your dps. That is the dumbest choice ever. Having to play the close game also negates half of the speed and maneuverability that the skulls offer by forcing you to be up close or miss half the shots.
Nobody focuses omega attack on Mel skulls and this also kills your mobility while forcing you to consider taking magick for the build. Most Mel skull builds require 0 mp. This approach negates the whole benefit of the aspect's attack power boost. If you want to use the omega then use Medea. The ONLY time this will come into play is using possessed array and even then you will only want possessed array for your first hammer of the run so you can pivot and build specifically for that hammer. If you don't have Hera and Demeter then your run is going to be extremely subpar any way you slice it. The only way you would consider wide grin is as a second hammer and only if you already have possessed array. It is a secondary hammer at best and only niche useful for the last half of a run. It is never an automatic take ever unless on Medea.
It is still a very great hammer on Medea. I haven't changed my mind and actually have already tested some runs on it. Solid hammer and my opinion for it strictly on Medea has only gone up. It has no real practical application on Mel.
I won't go so much in depth as you both have, so I'll share a couple of thoughts:
1) Arqane is right; the wide grin works wonderfully with the Omega Attack.
2) But using it as a basic attack, it's really underwhelming.
One small improvement I think it could make it VERY good is making the skulls do damage when returning to you (much like the knives).
You could even use it as a "trap" like shooting all the skulls, then using the special to automatically retrieve them while they damage the enemies on returning to you.
Now an honest question to Mr. Firewalk With Me: I know that you have been collecting data on weapons damage and all, which is a very cool thing and also a very useful piece of information.
However, judging by this topic you seem to be particularly... Obsessed... With the idea that "more DPS is better". Why?
Or am I reading the situation wrongly?
At its core the faster you can deal damage, the faster enemies die, the faster you can move to the next room, and the less damage enemies have an opportunity to deal to you. In a sense the best defense is a good offense. Would you not agree potentially killing a full room before they can get off attacks or before mint condition wears off is extremely conducive to a successful clear? The longer enemies stay alive the longer you have to dodge attacks and more potential for hp loss. Higher dps also forces boss sequence changes faster which again is just dealing with less attacks between any forced shifts.
Changing it to Medea only still makes it available for anyone wishing to use it. It is simply and factually a net loss in dps. My test run was a full 15,000 less damage than my lowest recorded run. That is a rough equivilent of removing an ENTIRE source of top 5 damage sources in a run. This is also strictly speaking at zero fear. Omega attacks without possessed array is less and less viable as fear goes up. You are gonna have a bad time. Almost any other strategy is more viable for success. As you know with 40% frenzy standing still AND close range? No, it is objectively just a bad choice and has one niche use case as an auxiliary source of damage.
I can imagine that some weapons/aspects may offer more options of effective builds, more well-rounded.
The human aspect of someone who feels more comfortable playing in a certain way, and that comfort and self confidence can make up for the lower DPS.
Again, I find your experiment very interesting and it is very valuable info. But then you can't take it as a black or white situation where you can simply translate "more DPS = better weapon".
Here is the thing though. This video doesn't prove anything that pertains to this convseration per se. Yes he used aspect of Mel, but that is irrelevant due to the fact that he only used omega attack. Had he done the same moves on a Medea run he would have gotten identical results. There is neither a positive or negative associated with hyper focusing this one attack on Mel or Medea aspect. The difference would have occurred if he had wanted to go mixed mode and utilize both standard attacks as well as omega attack. Medea would have seen a positive gain and Mel would have seen a negative loss.
I am curious now about Persephone aspect though. Per the wiki:
"Your Ω Special is Sprouted, and you can change direction as it plows ahead.
▸ Omega Move Damage: +10%/+15%/+20%/+25%/+30%/+45%"
Supergiant on theme as always the language is a bit murky here and the wiki does not go in depth enough to clarify. Does this mean only omega special? All omegas? If this aspect does indeed boost omega attack then Haelian would have absolutely been better served using Persephone over Melinoe. He also would not lose dps on the regular attack.
Edit: I had to test this out. Persephone absolutely boosts omega attack. This means if you want to go pure omega attack, fine line, possessed array, etc then Persephone aspect is hands down the winner.
Lol, thank you for making me test stuff out. Today I learned Persephone has a viable use.
I still think wide grin on Mel is garbage though.
Edit 2: So, I guess final conclusion is wide grin has acceptable use for 2/3 aspects with potential for 3/4, but statistically it is absolutely the worst on Mel as there are better options.