I despise Nemesis and I wish I didn't

[SaintBehelit]

I DREAD running into Nemesis, this game's mechanical counterpart to Thanatos. The little competitions against Than in the first game were usually a pretty tight race unless the player managed to concoct a pretty nasty build, but the fact that I had nothing to lose if I lost the competition made me actually excited to have one happen. Running into Thanatos meant slight bump in one room's challenge with a reward if I performed well - simple and satisfying. On top of that, the narrative dressing around the event was nice: Thanatos was stopping by to help me out in secret. Neat :^)

But then comes Nemesis. She attacks faster than Thanatos and then TAKES resources from the player if they lose. This means that not only am I more likely to lose the competition I had no way of avoiding, but now my run will be made even harder for having lost. To top it off, Nemesis is just WAY less likable at the start of this game than Thanatos was at the start of the game before. She's not showing up to help me, she's showing up to prove how weak I am. There certainly was an element of that to the relationship between Zagreus and Thanatos, but Nemesis has shown me zero indication that she gives a damn about Melinoe thus far.

I wish I had a more reasonable request beyond "make the Nemesis encounters easier" since that sounds whiny... but that's how I feel about the current state of this mechanic. I want to look forward to the challenge, not dread it. I don't want to hate a key member of the cast when they're clearly meant to be likable in the same way Thanatos was likable.

Devs, if you're reading this: please consider easing the challenge on the Nemesis encounters. Right now, it is just harsh.

[HinterHofen]

It's way harder in the first couple of areas but once she starts showing up in the endgame areas she's much more manageable and does less damage overall. It's also just about needing to get a good build, sometimes you'll have a slow build and need to deal with it. This game is absolutely about having high damage and not waiting things out.

[Dust]

I, for one, welcome a bit of friction every now and then. Feels patronizing to be catered to all the time in every game. Like yes, please, make me annoyed on purpose, I welcome it. It's something to be remembered rather than something that you have some fun with for a while and then forget about.

Edit: I'm secretely a psychic and I know for a fact that everyone who gives me a clown award for this has games like Ghost of Tsushima and Freddi Fish in their top 10.

[SaintBehelit]

Originally posted by HinterHofen:

It's way harder in the first couple of areas but once she starts showing up in the endgame areas she's much more manageable and does less damage overall. It's also just about needing to get a good build, sometimes you'll have a slow build and need to deal with it. This game is absolutely about having high damage and not waiting things out.

Fair point. I admittedly only have ten runs under my belt, so I have only ever encountered her in Erebus thus far. She just annihilates enemies way faster than I can since I have barely any upgrades by then. Your point makes sense in that regard.

[SaintBehelit]

Originally posted by Dust:

I, for one, welcome a bit of friction every now and then. Feels patronizing to be catered to all the time in every game. Like yes, please, make me annoyed on purpose, I welcome it. It's something to be remembered rather than something that you have some fun with for a while and then forget about.

That's an understandable perspective. I had my doubts about even posting this thread since I know not everyone will agree with me. Maybe the devs are comfortable with early-game Nemesis encounters being much harder than early-game Thanatos encounters. If so, I'll manage - the rest of the game is great, and I have no intention of letting this one mechanic ruin it for me.

[FatBottomGurley]

Originally posted by SaintBehelit:

Originally posted by HinterHofen:

It's way harder in the first couple of areas but once she starts showing up in the endgame areas she's much more manageable and does less damage overall. It's also just about needing to get a good build, sometimes you'll have a slow build and need to deal with it. This game is absolutely about having high damage and not waiting things out.

Fair point. I admittedly only have ten runs under my belt, so I have only ever encountered her in Erebus thus far. She just annihilates enemies way faster than I can since I have barely any upgrades by then. Your point makes sense in that regard.

Damn dude...at least grind some arcana cards and ♥♥♥♥. You only did 10 runs..thats nothing

[Neo NiGHTS ®]

OMG, I HATE NEMESIS SO MUCH!!!!

Hahahahaha

There's also one thing you forgot to mention: she takes away one of the doors to choose from!

She always leaves in front of way, chooses a door and leaves you with only one option. So annoying!!

Whenever I cross paths with her I go like "Argh, game, why do you hate me so much???" hahahah

Really, if the devs were aiming for someone that you can hate, they've nailed it.

[Dust]

Originally posted by Neo NiGHTS ®:

OMG, I HATE NEMESIS SO MUCH!!!!

Hahahahaha

There's also one thing you forgot to mention: she takes away one of the doors to choose from!

She always leaves in front of way, chooses a door and leaves you with only one option. So annoying!!

Whenever I cross paths with her I go like "Argh, game, why do you hate me so much???" hahahah

Really, if the devs were aiming for someone that you can hate, they've nailed it.

You can race her to that door, by the way. There are special voicelines if you do.

[Neo NiGHTS ®]

Originally posted by Dust:

Originally posted by Neo NiGHTS ®:

OMG, I HATE NEMESIS SO MUCH!!!!

Hahahahaha

There's also one thing you forgot to mention: she takes away one of the doors to choose from!

She always leaves in front of way, chooses a door and leaves you with only one option. So annoying!!

Whenever I cross paths with her I go like "Argh, game, why do you hate me so much???" hahahah

Really, if the devs were aiming for someone that you can hate, they've nailed it.

You can race her to that door, by the way. There are special voicelines if you do.

Oh really? I'll try that next time. Thanks for the tip.

(although I'll keep hating her :p)

[suksas]

Had an encounter with her. Frankly, it felt like she was build for kill stealing. Like with Thanatos it was race against clock as he would telegraph his area of death, and you would race against time to kill them.
Here? It was just I do majority of damage and she swoops in.

It feels like they split Thanatos into Artemis and Nemesis encounters. And artemis has this fun encounter where the two of you work together, she can drop a heal for you, and you even get a reward from her.

[The Sojourner]

Friendly reminder: Nemesis gonna nemesis (though I kinda agree with the OP when it comes to the Obols challenge).

[suksas]

Also, it gets worse. I came to Charon only to find Nemesis there and she bought one of the items.

[Jardex22]

I've only encountered her only a few times, and she's had a different gimmick each time. One was a traditional enemy contest (lost because she finished off the enemies I weakened), the next time was doing enough damage (won because I had Blitz). The next two were tradeoffs. Letting her attack me in exchange for stuff, then selling me something.

I'm curious about her character arc. She wants to prove herself, but isn't being given a chance. She also has to deal with the fact that she's not the main character in the story, which means she doesn't have a grand destiny.

I did find it ironic that Mel told her that they can't fight the Fate's designs after I'd already broken the curse binding her to the Underworld.

[Jardex22]

Originally posted by suksas:

Also, it gets worse. I came to Charon only to find Nemesis there and she bought one of the items.

Is it when you wait long enough, or does she cut in when you try to purchase something?

I've seen her at the shop twice, and I've cut in line to buy it out before she can get anything.

[jinx]

now this right here. is a skill diff.

[The Sojourner]

Originally posted by Jardex22:

I've only encountered her only a few times, and she's had a different gimmick each time. One was a traditional enemy contest (lost because she finished off the enemies I weakened), the next time was doing enough damage (won because I had Blitz). The next two were tradeoffs. Letting her attack me in exchange for stuff, then selling me something.

So far, I've encountered:

• The ol' Obols wager: slay more foes than Nemesis to win 100 Obols, or lose just as much (though it's not clear what happens when you don't even have 100 Obols to spare!). The problem is that this one isn't consensual like anything else she does.
  
• You sufficiently try to hurt her for a reward.
  
• She hurts you for a reward (reminds me of Price of Midas from the well). This one kinda feels tame as is though. In the original game, her blade could crit. Perhaps this could be played in to this wagering game with her: you take x damage, but with a crit chance, all for the same reward.
  
• The ol' tradeoff: gain a thing from her, lose a thing to her.
  
• She seals an exit for you if she can.
  
• She buys an item from Charon's shop before he can restock it for you, leaving you with one less option.

There may be more to that than I know though, and thus:

Originally posted by Jardex22:

I'm curious about her character arc. She wants to prove herself, but isn't being given a chance. She also has to deal with the fact that she's not the main character in the story, which means she doesn't have a grand destiny.

I did find it ironic that Mel told her that they can't fight the Fate's designs after I'd already broken the curse binding her to the Underworld.