Have dwarfs been overtuned?

[I'm too old for this]

Started a Gorbad Ironclaw campaign earlier this week. First one went horrible with about 6-7 people surrounding me all declaring war before turn 20 (It had been a long time since I played tww3, so i did easy mode just to ease my way back into things). Thorgrim was by far the worst to deal with.

after being torn apart by several factions, I restarted and was more careful with my initial expansion. In the end, Thorgrim still declared war, but this time I was ready for him. Or so I thought.

I had declared waaaagh with 2 full stacks. One went to the silver road and took over the lands there and stomped his armies. In my gorbad stack, I had about 7 black orcs, 3-4 mangler squigs, some boar boys, 2-3 rock lobbers and a hero or two. Thorgrim had his one unit of hammers, the gyro bombers, 1 quarreler and the rest were ALL dwarf warriors. a mix of shields and great weapons.

He spent about 10 turns constantly running from me, until i caught him in the underway. I thought I had a good chance against him, since basic dwarf warriors, even with great weapons, shouldn't stand a chance against a tier 3 greenskin black orc unit. And boy was I wrong.

Battle was over in less than a couple minutes. Black orcs were annihilated with ease by the dwarf warriors. Gyro bombers hit the squigs and made them rampage instantly, so they did basically nothing (althogh they did wrack up some kills for sure). Rock lobbers did great in wearing down the hammerers and quarrerlers, but I was shocked that basic dwarf warriors absolutely destroyed black orcs.

Are dwarfs a bit overtuned currently? Or are greenskins under tuned? I started an arbaal campaign and took on Archaon by turn 15 or so and had no problem going toe to toe with him with just basic khorne warriors, marauders etc, and he had spawns, calvary, warriors etc. on all accounts he had the better army but I beat him no issues, so I feel its not a matter of me being complete ass.

If anyone else has more experience with recent campaigns against dwarfs, any input would be great!

[wpegg]

What stats modifiers did you have set? Black orks should indeed be beating dwarf warriors. Were you on force march during the underway interception?

[I'm too old for this]

Nope, Not forced march at all. I had been in ambush stance to trick him to come closer, so he was in the underway stance when i attacked.

[(Steelclaw)]

There is a fairly strong consensus among veteran players that dwarfs are overtuned and have been since their update in Thrones of Decay reduced recruitment requirement for their higher-tier units and gave them a bunch of unfair campaign mechanics.

I am surprised to hear dwarf warriors beating black orcs in 1v1, though. If you got surrounded, that's another matter entirely (normal to lose to inferior infantry in that kind of situation, and black orcs aren't notable for high defense).

I've not heard any complaints to the effects of greenskins being undertuned - general consensus is they're fine, could use some QoL sprucing up in a few places and skill tree updates. I should note that I have never played greenskins, though, so I am only passing on what I've heard from my involvement with communities and friends who do.

As wpegg mentions, AI stats modifier can also play a factor in wonky melee results. I've seen phoenix guard lose to rot knights with high AI stat modifiers, and this definitely doesn't happen in symmetrical test battles unless the PG are being completely mismanaged.

[I'm too old for this]

Originally posted by (Steelclaw):

There is a fairly strong consensus among veteran players that dwarfs are overtuned and have been since their update in Thrones of Decay reduced recruitment requirement for their higher-tier units and gave them a bunch of unfair campaign mechanics.

I am surprised to hear dwarf warriors beating black orcs in 1v1, though. If you got surrounded, that's another matter entirely (normal to lose to inferior infantry in that kind of situation, and black orcs aren't notable for high defense).

I've not heard any complaints to the effects of greenskins being undertuned - general consensus is they're fine, could use some QoL sprucing up in a few places and skill tree updates. I should note that I have never played greenskins, though, so I am only passing on what I've heard from my involvement with communities and friends who do.

As wpegg mentions, AI stats modifier can also play a factor in wonky melee results. I've seen phoenix guard lose to rot knights with high AI stat modifiers, and this definitely doesn't happen in symmetrical test battles unless the PG are being completely mismanaged.

I wasn't surrounded thankfully. Since it was an underway battle, my Borcs met his warriors head on. And i'd say within 30-40 seconds, half of my black orcs were suffering upwards of half casualties.

I am not sure what or how to check AI stat modifiers to be honest!

I was just as suprised as you. Especially black orcs with shields. Hence the post. Genuinely confused, since before the patch you mentioned above, black orcs would wipe the floor with dwarf warriors anyday.

[Frenker]

There are a bunch low tier units that are overperforming in lot of factions same as with lords be it due to stats, collision mesh or animations sometimes combination of all.

They are a bugs everywhere and strange interactions as well so who knows what the hell is really going on half of the time.

[Isaac]

whaaaat? dwarfs are not overtuned, they need at least 3 more buffs so that every idiot can easily play them on legendary.

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by wpegg:

What stats modifiers did you have set? Black orks should indeed be beating dwarf warriors. Were you on force march during the underway interception?

Not even on maxed ai boni dwarf warriors beat black orks (gw) in an 1v1.
The shielded ones win too, just take longer.

I'd guess his rock lobbers got a few extra teef after the battle.

[Mr Robert House]

Dwarves get lots of buffs to many of their units from all over the place, if ai stats were also being modified i wouldnt be surprised by t1 dwarves beating black orcs. Their melee defense will be insane, and tgeir attack will probably beat yoyr defense

[Sarumoon]

All they lack in height they make up for in girth.

[Kharn Terrer]

Originally posted by I'm too old for this:

Started a Gorbad Ironclaw campaign earlier this week. First one went horrible with about 6-7 people surrounding me all declaring war before turn 20 (It had been a long time since I played tww3, so i did easy mode just to ease my way back into things). Thorgrim was by far the worst to deal with.

after being torn apart by several factions, I restarted and was more careful with my initial expansion. In the end, Thorgrim still declared war, but this time I was ready for him. Or so I thought.

I had declared waaaagh with 2 full stacks. One went to the silver road and took over the lands there and stomped his armies. In my gorbad stack, I had about 7 black orcs, 3-4 mangler squigs, some boar boys, 2-3 rock lobbers and a hero or two. Thorgrim had his one unit of hammers, the gyro bombers, 1 quarreler and the rest were ALL dwarf warriors. a mix of shields and great weapons.

He spent about 10 turns constantly running from me, until i caught him in the underway. I thought I had a good chance against him, since basic dwarf warriors, even with great weapons, shouldn't stand a chance against a tier 3 greenskin black orc unit. And boy was I wrong.

Battle was over in less than a couple minutes. Black orcs were annihilated with ease by the dwarf warriors. Gyro bombers hit the squigs and made them rampage instantly, so they did basically nothing (althogh they did wrack up some kills for sure). Rock lobbers did great in wearing down the hammerers and quarrerlers, but I was shocked that basic dwarf warriors absolutely destroyed black orcs.

Are dwarfs a bit overtuned currently? Or are greenskins under tuned? I started an arbaal campaign and took on Archaon by turn 15 or so and had no problem going toe to toe with him with just basic khorne warriors, marauders etc, and he had spawns, calvary, warriors etc. on all accounts he had the better army but I beat him no issues, so I feel its not a matter of me being complete ass.

If anyone else has more experience with recent campaigns against dwarfs, any input would be great!

Dwarf Warriors beat Black Orcs on easy? I call bs on this. You must have had them without their gear. I eat Dwarf Warriors for breakfast on Hard and Very hard.
I dunno what you did wrong but this is not the norm lol.

Black Orcs even beat Longbeards with ease. They struggle massively with Ironbreakers I must admit. But no way did they get beaten by Dwarf Warriors without some major help.
You must have been being shot in the side by Thunderers or hit by quarrellers at the same time.

[arclan]

Yes. Last I checked, Dorfs are overpowered; they expand and end up taking a great deal of territory in EVERY GAME.

[๋]

Dwarves should always be one of the best. In fact, they deserve buffs right now just because.

[Basarab Laiota]

in the book you go, manling

[Treyen]

only thing better than a crying urk, is a dead one

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by Mr Robert House:

Dwarves get lots of buffs to many of their units from all over the place, if ai stats were also being modified i wouldnt be surprised by t1 dwarves beating black orcs. Their melee defense will be insane, and tgeir attack will probably beat yoyr defense

As Thorgrim, dwarf warriors can get:
Red line: 6MA, 6MD, 12 armor, 5MD
Tech if shielded: 4MA, 4MD, 10 armor
Tech if GW: 4MA, +10% AP WS, +10 charge, charge reflect.
And some stuff that doesn't matter vs black orcs, like missile block.

Maxxed ai buffs are unit dependant and are minor due to their % nature besides LS.

Neither version of DW beats BOs in an 1v1. Neither do longbeards.

Now if its maxxed ai buffs, tech buffs, veterancy and red line vs BOs with neither, they should win or at least getting very close to.