Tzeentch Needs some loving.

[Shifty Shoes]

Now before i say anything I'm going to say that i am a bit of a tzeentch main and i recently tried out the other mono gods to get a feel of how the other factions played. and frankly i came to the conclusion that not only is Tzeentch the worst of the mono gods there is a bit of a distance between Tzeentch and the other 3. I can firmly say the Slannesh is on the top spot followed by Khorne, then Nurgle.

now despite the fact that Tzeentch is a weaker faction it is amazingly fun and outrageously stupid with its campaign mechanics and is easily what the strength of the faction is. most of the problems playing Tzeentch revolves around your roster and lords (more specifically your exalted lords).

It may surprise some people but the Tzeentch roster actually struggles against mass and armour, only a handful of units actually have amour piercing (aside from their monsters but you'd be pretty hard done to find a monster that doesnt have ap).

your main frontline is a nice anvil being the classic maurauder, Tzzangor, chaos warrior, or chosen. with all the other chaos factions. the fact they all have magic damage is a god send though the protos sheilds don't do much except avoid the first bit of poke. the inclusion of a tangor doesn't really make alot of sense since you get it at the same tier as a chaos warrior which is simply better if a little slower costing around the same.they do come into effect in multiplayer though which is nice. there isn't much to change here. its the chaos front line, its effective across 5 factions and doesn't need to change.

your demonic infantry are frankly awful. they lack any kind of range to be a missile unit only coming in at 120 (norm is 160) and they lack any form of Ap to be worth it later in the campaign. although their supposed to be a hybrid infantry their stats dont stack late game and the lack of amour makes them far from any form of effective. to fix it i would probaly just give them a range buff to 140 and give the exalted pink horror AP.

their monstrous infantry leave alot to be desired, they only have spawn and although they aren't awful they are very low tier. this is one of the areas they could use alot of improvement just another unit that either has AP or more armour to help out your front line.

your monstrous missile units are the flamers of tzeentch and the exalted variant. in my opinion these units are very similar to warp fire throwers. you get them into position and you let loose, the second they come into contact with anything hostile you kiss them goodbye. they are better because they have more speed but the lack of armour makes them more vulnerable to everything else especially ranged attacks. the main problem is this is one of your few AP units and its critical you keep them alive. they aren't bad but ive always found them a bit of a gamble.

your skirmish cav are the humble marauder horsemen with javelins, top tier unit great across its 6 factions.

your proper cav are also pretty good, with the stand out exception being the centigors of Tzeentch which are amazing. now alot of people complain about this unit and the fact its constantly spammed in in Tzeentchian armies. its spammed because its one of the only reliable AP units Tzeentch has and really forms the hammer against the anvil. other than that Chaos knights great across 5 factions. if you've started to see a bit of a pattern it does continue on. most units unique to the tzeentch roster aren't great and the ones they share with other factions are actually really good and carry the team. which is why i think they could use a few buffs.

now flying units. Chaos furies, great across all factions no notes. Screamers, leave alot to be desired in my opinion. they constantly struggle taking down units to the point where rat ogres sometimes get the jump on them. Idk if its something wrong with their hits or maybe the unable to land like the flying snake in the lizard men, but they often under performed for me. Doom Knights, very similar to the Screamers they just kind of under perform. especially for a tier 5 unit. they just leave you with a lot to be desired, they are effective don't get me wrong but they quickly get out traded by most other things especially at their level. in terms of buffs to bring these units up to snuff. Give screamers a bit more health and try to fix their collision animations then they'll be fine. for Doom Knights, first and foremost they're a spear unit give them anti large. nothing big 10-15 should be fine. then more models with hp adjustment something like 32 would be fine. then melee defence increase. these are chosen on disks make them match chaos knights.

Monsters, firstly the cockatirce is still heavily bugged and just isn't working. change bringers are once again dicey but alot better one of the few 10/10 units on the roster perfect for what it is. the burning chariot is really just sad, it is supposed to be for single entities but it mostly misses and its awful in melee. change bringers are just better in every way. Soul grinders of tzeentch have really fallen off. their missile attack has been so heavily nerfed that it doesn't do its intended job anymore. other than that its a soul grinder it holds up fine in melee. Mutalith vortex beast, kinda similar to the soul grinder, was good at launch and has now been nerfed to the point where it can't do its job anymore. and still has those collision problems. finally, Lord of Change, not the worst monster. it does its job well, has flying, good stats, is a little flimsy compared to the other greater demons but it holds up. i would say its the 2nd worst just infront of the blood thrister because its bound spells aren't great in multiplayer. to fix these things i would just fix the bugs, change it so the soul grinders missile attack still works going back a couple of patches, and change the lord of changes spells to be gleam magic and pink fire in multiplayer.

now the lords are really funky for tzeentch.

the first thing i'll say is i wish the god of magic had more schools of magic. I know it has the most of all the Chaos gods at 3 but come on. only lore of Metal, Tzeentch, and fire kind of sucks. especially since Tzeentch has been nerfed to be a c to b tier of magic. I'd like to see Kairos campiagn mechanic applied to all lords of change, except with a smaller repertoire since Kairos needs to be legendary. give them access to the chaos magics, Metal, Tzeentch, Shadows, Fire, and Death. then the exalted lord of change should be what it is, a masterful caster lord.

now the lesser demons and lords are actually really good and they don't really need to be changed. but what does need to be changed is the demon price of Tzeentch. because it is a straight down grade from a chaos lord or sorcerer. for some reason its the only Demon prince that doesn't have AP, despite the fact its wielding a halberd. its lore of magic is awful. they picked the worst spells from metal and tzeentch and just hoped for the best. remember this is supposed to be the combat version of Tzeentchs greater demon lords. and desperately needs some fixing. firstly, give it AP and Anti-large its a halberd give it to him. then fix up his magic situation, first spell is searing doom, then pink fire, plague of rust, then either gleam magic or treason of tzeentch. for the final two spells, Final transmutation and infernal gateway. then hes a good combat lord and fits the standards of the other demon lords.

[kilen]

Am currently on a Kairos campaign L/VH full modif with Ultimate crises dropping at turn58, and yeah Tzeench is the least potent of the 4 on the battlefield, definitely.
Squishy units, even heroes are squishy, but amazingly strong on the campaign map with changer of ways tab.
Even with a relatively early UEGC, and even with squishy armies, am thriving !
I just love that campaign, really…
It’s totally coherent lorewise, very thematic and immersive.
I still hate Tzeench troops though (well, armies are high dmg dealing with magic in end game and late troops or doomstacks are potent at some point ofc, but even there still significantly weaker than comparable stacks on others monogods factions), but frankly i wouldn’t want it to be different…
Plotting and scheming,
thats what is all about !
Why would you do it and try to manipulate everyone if you have unstoppable killing machines to roll over everything like Skulltaker ie, or Golgf*g ? (both clearly broken, way too strong if you ask me)
Tzeench is fine and challenging, it actually requires scheming, planning & anticipation to dominate the Ultimate crises, and that’s right on the spot and thematic, its just great !
I don’t think it needs to change or anything related to him.
What needs to change and be nerfed are Skulltaker bloodhosts, or the amount of gold Golg gets for example, that’s not normal at all.
But Tzeench is just great as it is, it’s a really fun and challenging campaign, totally thematic, what else to ask for frankly ?
The real problem is the power creep and overbidding on new factions, not properly tested enough and way too strong/snowbally, etc.
And as always older factions suffer from the power creep, even well thought & right on the spot thematically, like Kairos here.
Already seen that story in several games unfortunately, but what can we do, new content must be attractive to be sold, so… there we are 🤷🏼
But it’s not Tzeench that need a buff to fix all that, it’s definitely the contrary, the new broken factions at release must be nerfed instead to minimise the disparity of potential between new & old factions.

[IonizedMercury]

Tzeentch is not a "weaker faction", Tzeentch is an overpowered extreme easy-mode faction like about all the rest.

[Isaac]

Tzeentch is incredibly strong, what are you Smoking?
Tzeentch hasn't been difficult for a long time now.

[Threetails]

Tzeench units are weak by design but I think they overdid it.

Horrors in general need a buff. I think if they add a tech that gives 10% range and a tech that buffs missile AP by 3, it would fix the issue. Right now, horrors are just horrible in comparison to literally every other daemonic infantry.

Mutalith Vortex I think would be fixed just by making the tech that gives it increased Replenishment regen instead.

I agree with Doom Knights needing a buff. When you compare them Statwise with other flying cav they dont seem too bad but then when you look at for example tech tree, Cathay tech buffs Longma with +10% Charge, +4 MA, +20% Speed, +20 Charge, and +20 Armor while Doom knights get +2 recruit rank (basically useless) and -15% recruit cost (again basically useless). If they had either of those things removed and the tech gave +10-15 bonus v large and some extra charge bonus or something it would be perfect IMO.

I do have to say though, if you think Nurgle is the weakest monogod IMO u are straight wrong. IMO Slaneesh is strongest early to mid and Nurgle is strongest mid-late with Khorne just solid for the whole ride.

Plagueist existing as a trait and Exalted Plaguebearers being what they are makes Nurgle ridiculously good once you can get Soul Grinders, once you have artillery and can convince people to come to you this faction is insanely strong. Exalted Plaguebearers just dont die and do insane missile damage. On top of that, the new DLC gives you what honestly may be some of the best units in the game. Rot Knights may be the all around strongest Cav unit in the game and Toad Dragons are one of the best single entity monsters in the game. And while a bunch of your units dont have regen, you can actually get it from both Heralds (limited) and warshrines (infinite).

IMO each has their weaknesses. Slaneesh is ridiculously strong early but can slump later vs high tier infantry and single entities. On top of that your units are very flimsy and can die very easily. Nurgle requires some time to scale but has some ridiculously powerful lategame options and buffs. And Khorne has solid options basically throughout the whole campaign. IMO they are all in the same general ballpark.

Don't sleep on Nurgle. If you can make it into the mid-late game, they are a crazy faction.

[IonizedMercury]

Nothing about Tzeentch needs even the sliver of a buff.

Maybe buff your playing skills instead.

[Fluffy Newfoundland]

What i would love for Tzeentch is a new tech tree, Egrimm for a non-deamonic army LL and 2 - 3 new non-deamon units (like flagellan cultist or something).

[Shifty Shoes]

Originally posted by Threetails:

Tzeench units are weak by design but I think they overdid it.

Horrors in general need a buff. I think if they add a tech that gives 10% range and a tech that buffs missile AP by 3, it would fix the issue. Right now, horrors are just horrible in comparison to literally every other daemonic infantry.

Mutalith Vortex I think would be fixed just by making the tech that gives it increased Replenishment regen instead.

I agree with Doom Knights needing a buff. When you compare them Statwise with other flying cav they dont seem too bad but then when you look at for example tech tree, Cathay tech buffs Longma with +10% Charge, +4 MA, +20% Speed, +20 Charge, and +20 Armor while Doom knights get +2 recruit rank (basically useless) and -15% recruit cost (again basically useless). If they had either of those things removed and the tech gave +10-15 bonus v large and some extra charge bonus or something it would be perfect IMO.

I do have to say though, if you think Nurgle is the weakest monogod IMO u are straight wrong. IMO Slaneesh is strongest early to mid and Nurgle is strongest mid-late with Khorne just solid for the whole ride.

Plagueist existing as a trait and Exalted Plaguebearers being what they are makes Nurgle ridiculously good once you can get Soul Grinders, once you have artillery and can convince people to come to you this faction is insanely strong. Exalted Plaguebearers just dont die and do insane missile damage. On top of that, the new DLC gives you what honestly may be some of the best units in the game. Rot Knights may be the all around strongest Cav unit in the game and Toad Dragons are one of the best single entity monsters in the game. And while a bunch of your units dont have regen, you can actually get it from both Heralds (limited) and warshrines (infinite).

IMO each has their weaknesses. Slaneesh is ridiculously strong early but can slump later vs high tier infantry and single entities. On top of that your units are very flimsy and can die very easily. Nurgle requires some time to scale but has some ridiculously powerful lategame options and buffs. And Khorne has solid options basically throughout the whole campaign. IMO they are all in the same general ballpark.

Don't sleep on Nurgle. If you can make it into the mid-late game, they are a crazy faction.

most of my opinions more come from multiplayer rather than campaigns, which is a bit of a blunder. in multiplayer i believe it goes Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, then Tzeentch in terms of win rate.

i do agree with most people here except for that one guy rage baiting for some reason.

i do think tzeentch could use a couple little buffs and some slight mix ups just to come on par unit wise with the other factions. especially to get them on par with the mono gods and because they have one of the jankier rosters in the game in terms of units not functioning properly. which is all in the previous post. but i think the biggest thing that really shows disparity between the gods is the demon prince. Idk why but if you look in game the Demon prince of Tzeentch is just substantially worse then every other demon prince.

[Andreas_Sturm]

Tzeentch is probably the most infuriating race to go against both on the campaign map and in battle. And unless they changed something since I last played, this is the only chaos god race that is able to generate points for their army abilities without actually needing to be in combat and their abilities are extremely annoying. I get Tzeentch is supposed to be annoying, but it shouldn't be at the players' detriment, as I'm not the only one with these criticisms. So I would be against any buffs.

It would be nice to see another legendary lord added, as Tzeentch would be the only one with two. They should also change the way points are generated in battle for the army abilities, perhaps requiring the spells to actually do damage rather than just be cast. And they should make the Changing of the Ways less infuriating, I mean, it feels like all the AI does is steal settlements (the player's settlements). At least add a building that can make the settlement immune to this rubbish, or maybe allowing for the AI faction that received it to offer the settlement back to the player at a discounted price if relations are good.

[Detonation]

There are still factions that need WAY more love than Tzeentch right now.

[Staxzilla]

Tzeentch just needs its FLC campaign that it deserves.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by Shifty Shoes:

most of my opinions more come from multiplayer rather than campaigns, which is a bit of a blunder. in multiplayer i believe it goes Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, then Tzeentch in terms of win rate.

Pure nonsense, Tzeentch is ultra-strong in MP thanks to being the only monogod faction with widespread shooting, which is the meta in this game.

Slaanesh, LOLOLOLOL! Slaanesh gets hard-countered by certain faction picks thanks to having no reliable way to deal with flying shooty units.

[Tunguska]

Originally posted by Shifty Shoes:

most of my opinions more come from multiplayer rather than campaigns, which is a bit of a blunder. in multiplayer i believe it goes Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, then Tzeentch in terms of win rate.

You should never ever use win rate as your main or only metric. Not to mention the sample size is fairly small, and I highly doubt you have accurate data.

If we're talking multiplayer strength, it's more like Daemons>Khorne>Slaanesh>Tzeentch>Nurgle than whatever you seem to think.

Daemons are first since they have access to a grab-bag of the best Daemonic units, and those aren't a joke anymore.

Khorne second because they have solid units even after the nerfs, Wrathmongers are still insane for their cost. Good monstrous infantry. They can even kite against some factions.

Slaanesh second, they have alright infantry, and great mobility. Get Seekers. Pavane is just ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Are Fiends still great? I dunno.

Tzeentch third, Blues are great for the cost, Pinks are good too. They can rush with Centigors & ♥♥♥♥, their Furies and Screamers are okay. They can make Halberd box. Easy to charge army abilities.

Nurgle last because while they hold well, they don't have that much killing power (especially ranged), their high-end units like Plague Ogres or Chosen (Great Weapons) are too expensive and/or easy to nuke. Their big monsters are ass. Other factions in the game have better cav for the cost.

They have one of the better Soul Grinders, Rotting Riders are fine, and Angels of Decay are really solid. Their lord options and lores of magic are good as well.

This is just overall strength, not specific bad matchups. Also considering potential, without taking into account player skill. Things might be a bit different depending on the game mode as well, this is mostly from land battle perspective.

In campaign, Khorne is first place, no questions asked. Anyone who thinks they're not strongest in the game right now is a brainlet or hasn't played them. When I say strongest, I don't mean the ability to survive like a cockroach (if measuring by that the Changeling is strongest), but the ability to take territory and resources, along with increasing their own military power.

[Dr.Bones]

Tzeentch will also get some new shinies or at least a new LL in the future. He lacks the third lord, his mortal champion like the rest of the chaos divided factions have. Probably it will be Engrimm

[Aleera]

The only thing Tzeentch "needs" in my opinion, is a FLC lord. One that focuses more on mortals.

Just like Nurgle really could do with a legendary hero. The jolly giant has none. No, I don't count the Tamurkhan ones.

[Dr.Bones]

Originally posted by Aleera:

The only thing Tzeentch "needs" in my opinion, is a FLC lord. One that focuses more on mortals.

Just like Nurgle really could do with a legendary hero. The jolly giant has none. No, I don't count the Tamurkhan ones.

Valnir the Reaper would do nicely