I cant explain why Arkhan the Black is so cool

[Froz7y]

Evil bad ass mummy Lord, he just has this darkness inside him, he has a special monstrous and expandable unit. I really cant wait if there is a Nagash DLC, if he had a mixture of Tomb King and VC type units, it would be so sick.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Dont Think About It:

Where did i imply that?

I said "Did you know the dark magic was there last thing they tried befor about to giving up?" In this context i'm talking about the dark elfs, teaching him magic. and he could not feel or sense anything. They hes teachers were about to give up, when they tought about trying "dark magic" they didt say dark magic they said something along the lines of what witches use.

Ahh.

Well that is kinda weird, since what little lore we have on dark magic (Dhar) describes it as drawing from all eight winds of magic (Similar to Qhaysh, high magic, but in a corrupt/twisted way).

So it seems weird that he couldn't feel individual winds but could draw on all of them at once?

[Pervy]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Dont Think About It:

Where did i imply that?

I said "Did you know the dark magic was there last thing they tried befor about to giving up?" In this context i'm talking about the dark elfs, teaching him magic. and he could not feel or sense anything. They hes teachers were about to give up, when they tought about trying "dark magic" they didt say dark magic they said something along the lines of what witches use.

Ahh. Well that is kinda weird, since what little lore we have on dark magic (Dhar) describes it as drawing from all eight winds of magic (Similar to Qhaysh, high magic, but in a corrupt/twisted way).

I thought they told him it was not something anyone would lower them selfs to use?
i'm a go dig out the book.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Dont Think About It:

I thought they told him it was not something anyone would lower them selfs to use?

Dark magic has a tendency to make the user insane, again its described as twisted/corrupted, so yea wouldn't recommend anyone to use it.

[Pervy]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Dont Think About It:

I thought they told him it was not something anyone would lower them selfs to use?

Dark magic has a tendency to make the user insane, again its described as twisted/corrupted, so yea wouldn't recommend anyone to use it.

He didt have much of a choice.
book 1 page 149 "Everything they told him confirmed his beliefs: the gods were not the wellsprings of the worlds's power. Magic permeated the land, invisible and omnipresent as the desert wind. Those that were sensitive to its touch and a potent will. So the druchii said, and yet despite hes every effort, Nagash felt nothing."

Nagash was already a power mongor, and he loved to use bitting sarcasm.

[Pervy]

Originally posted by Frostie Gigas:

Evil bad ass mummy Lord, he just has this darkness inside him, he has a special monstrous and expandable unit. I really cant wait if there is a Nagash DLC, if he had a mixture of Tomb King and VC type units, it would be so sick.

Also i got a note about him for you.
Page 150 book 1.
"The tall one in the middle is named is named Arkhan the black. He'd cut his own mothers's throat for a bag of coin"

Second note, hes a drunk yard.

Same page.
"He chews jusesh root like a commen fishermen, and he's got a smile like a smashed wine cup"

[Heinz]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Fair enough. But bastardized Nehekhara rites mixed with black magic is still the foundation of necromancy.

The only right Nehekara has to necromancy other than Nagash himself is the idea of eternal life. Life, not undeath. The rites of Nagash come from him alone. He discarded all the old rites and concepts as they could not serve his purpose.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Heinz:

The only right Nehekara has to necromancy other than Nagash himself is the idea of eternal life. Life, not undeath. The rites of Nagash come from him alone. He discarded all the old rites and concepts as they could not serve his purpose.

From the Tomb Kings army book:

Through the magical incantations of Liche Priests, spirits of loyal soldiers are summoned from the Realm of Souls and bound within corporeal remains. These warriors are not, then, slaves to the will of an evil wizard, but dutiful soldiers who unswervingly obey their king's commands in death, just as they once had in life.

So Tomb kings raise undead all on their own, but they do not use necromancy, necromancy is not so much the concept of raising the dead as its a specific spell lore in warhammer, Tomb kings use the original way of doing it, through the lore of Nehekara they developed while they researched paths to immortality.

Nagash, a priest in the Mortuary Cult used the knowledge he obtained in those rites, together with dark magic to create the lore of necromancy, here is another quote form the tomb kings armybook:

Nagash began to experiment with necromancy, combining his mastery of Dark Magic with his knowledge of death from the Mortuary Cult.

Nehakaran rites, mixed with dark magic, is the core of necromancy. Note that i say "the core", Nagash has made it completely his own thing, the whole new spell lore being bound to him in some way.

[Heinz]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Heinz:

The only right Nehekara has to necromancy other than Nagash himself is the idea of eternal life. Life, not undeath. The rites of Nagash come from him alone. He discarded all the old rites and concepts as they could not serve his purpose.

From the Tomb Kings army book:

Through the magical incantations of Liche Priests, spirits of loyal soldiers are summoned from the Realm of Souls and bound within corporeal remains. These warriors are not, then, slaves to the will of an evil wizard, but dutiful soldiers who unswervingly obey their king's commands in death, just as they once had in life.

So Tomb kings raise undead all on their own, but they do not use necromancy, necromancy is not so much the concept of raising the dead as its a specific spell lore in warhammer, Tomb kings use the original way of doing it, through the lore of Nehekara they developed while they researched paths to immortality.

Nagash, a priest in the Mortuary Cult used the knowledge he obtained in those rites, together with dark magic to create the lore of necromancy, here is another quote form the tomb kings armybook:

Nagash began to experiment with necromancy, combining his mastery of Dark Magic with his knowledge of death from the Mortuary Cult.

Nehakaran rites, mixed with dark magic, is the core of necromancy. Note that i say "the core", Nagash has made it completely his own thing, the whole new spell lore being bound to him in some way.

Yes, the army books do not explain things in detail as the novels can. Whatever magics and knowledge the current Nehekarans perform on themselves was all discovered applied after Nagash killed them all and raised them. Over a thousand years after the rise of Nagash. Before Nagash they were a nation of the living. Would it make sense for a nation that is wiped out entirely by surprise and then resurrected as undead to have complete understanding and mastery of their situation? No.

[Pervy]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Dont Think About It:

Did you read the book where the dark elf slaves are teaching him about magic?

I have read about it, but i haven't read the book itself. That said, i know he learnt black magic from captured dark elves.

Book 1 page 159;
"If this does not work, what then? he asked curtly. malchior shrugged. There is nothing else,´
he said. This ritual isn't even an accpted part of our magical lore. It's the sort of thing practised by shade-casters and gutter witches. who lack the will to harness the winds of magic.´ If this attempt fails, the fault lies with you human. i've tried everything i can think of.´"
Page 160:
"Did you drug him? Nagash asked, frowning at Khefru.
Well... Yes, the young preist replied. Í thought it prudent, all things considered. The Grand Hieropant glanced worriedly at Malchior.
Will that cause Problems?
The notion seemed to amuse the druchii. Who said,
That depends on how much effort you intend to put into your lesson. He pointed to the flowing black lines. Just be carefull that the foll doesn't scuff your hard work with hes plodding feet. Imhep was glancing around the dimly lit chamber with befuddled interest, taking special note of the two witches.
What... That is... How many i be of serive to you, holy one?
he asked? My friend Khefru mentioned a reward of some kind.
He has debets,´Khefru interjected. 'Imhepis something of a gambler, you see.
Nagash eyed teh young noble closely."(he didt look to fancy okei, he lost alot in gambling)


Then dark elf drove needles into drugged guys body:
"Touch your fingers to the needle, then,´ he said.
The Grand Hierophant's gaze fell to the needle jutting from Imep's torse. Tentetively he reached out and laid a finger on its found end. the noble stiffeend hes eyes widening in pain.
The metal trembled against Nagash's fingertips.
It was cold to the touch... and then he felt it, like a faint thread of fire pulsing against hes skin.
Yes, Nagash whispered. Yes... A terrible, hungry light grew in hes eyes. At Last"

[Pervy]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

This is a direct quote from the tomb kings army book:

Nagash began to experiment with necromancy, combining his mastery of Dark Magic with his knowledge of death from the Mortuary Cult.

knowledge of Mortuary Cult =/= Mortuary Cult magic.
Nagash learned about the bodys anatomy from the Mortuary cult and the dark elfs.
Or atleast what matters from the DE. About nerve endings was from DE.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Heinz:

Yes, the army books do not explain things in detail as the novels can. Whatever magics and knowledge the current Nehekarans perform on themselves was all discovered applied after Nagash killed them all and raised them. Over a thousand years after the rise of Nagash. Before Nagash they were a nation of the living. Would it make sense for a nation that is wiped out entirely by surprise and then resurrected as undead to have complete understanding and mastery of their situation? No.

Did i say they had complete understanding and mastery of the situation? What part of "Nagash made it his own thing" is it that is hard to grasp?

Necromancy can still be based on the knowledge of the Mortuary Cult. Heck firearms are based on gunpowder, but someone making gunpowder for fireworks would still be completely trashed by someone with firearms.

[👁]

Originally posted by Frostie Gigas:

Evil bad ass mummy Lord, he just has this darkness inside him, he has a special monstrous and expandable unit. I really cant wait if there is a Nagash DLC, if he had a mixture of Tomb King and VC type units, it would be so sick.

Imagine you awaken as Nagash as a weakened spirit not even having a body yet, so you need to send your champion to go kill Volkmar, then once you have a body you need to go march against Azhag and get the crown back, then roam around collecting lost artifacts to grow your power. With a FLOATING Black Pyramid that can travel between regions so semi-nomadic but with a permanent base.

[Pervy]

Originally posted by 👁:

Originally posted by Frostie Gigas:

Evil bad ass mummy Lord, he just has this darkness inside him, he has a special monstrous and expandable unit. I really cant wait if there is a Nagash DLC, if he had a mixture of Tomb King and VC type units, it would be so sick.

Imagine you awaken as Nagash as a weakened spirit not even having a body yet, so you need to send your champion to go kill Volkmar, then once you have a body you need to go march against Azhag and get the crown back, then roam around collecting lost artifacts to grow your power. With a FLOATING Black Pyramid that can travel between regions so semi-nomadic but with a permanent base.

Alot of people would flock to him, and he would not need to fight Azhag.

[Falaris]

Thing about Arkhan... he's the eternal minion. He's the sidekick who always fails so that the Big Bad's plans can be foiled without losing 'big bad' status. I'm not sure why he's so cool either, because he's .. not.

He is a powerful lord and has a nifty color scheme, esp. for his constructs. That's cool.

As for Nagash -he is often held up as this all powerful big bad, but it's based on the End Times/AoS - and we do not talk about the End Times. At the point where people nom up gods or winds of magic and becomes incarnates... it's just words meaning nothing. It's plot soup because action figures.

Before the end times, Nagash is the grand necromancer - this is stated outright in sourcebooks. This is Truth. He is the greatest necromancer. But Necromancers aren't all that and a bag of chips.

The thing with Nagash is - yeah, he did some pretty powerful things. But he cheats. Much like Skaven gray seers and engineers, he uses warpstone to NOx his magic engine; that is what fueled his great rituals and works of magic. Vlad did the same trick when he raised basically all the dead of Sylvania - using Warpstone from the meteor that hit Mordheim to fuel the great ritual. (Nagash had a refinery at Nagashizzar).

Mordheim was chronicled in a separate game here: https://store.steampowered.com/app/276810/Mordheim_City_of_the_Damned/

It's kinda cool, although an acquired taste.

It would be neat if strategic use of warpstone to fuel massive magical rituals was a thing in TWWH3. However, I digress. What makes a wizard powerful? To be real, of course the knowledge of how to refine and use warpstone - and the will to use it - is an aspect of what makes Nagash very powerful. But that's taken into account when you see various 'most powerful wizards' lists - And Nagash isn't on the top. Far from it.

In fact, in most lists, Teclis rate higher. As does Kroak, Mazdamundi, Morathi, etc. Nagash is powerful... but not 'next level' powerful. He's perfectly in line with regular legendary lords.

He's often the big bad with his one ring making havoc kind of plot, but that's not him being powerful, that's him being Plot. (Azhag's headband and the dubiously similar nemesis crown).

Will CA be able to use him? Not in the way he's in AoS, that's for sure. That limits us to how he was when fighting Sigmar or Settra. He was so powerful back then because he was one of very few humans to know magic well at all, and because of warpstone, and because he was a schemer with a plan, and a deft hand at making cursed artifacts. Among less good traits was hubris and a serious case of paranoid homicidal.

This is written a bit tongue-in-cheek and gloss over a couple of events. His biggest magical acts was basically enabled by warpstone, and intended to be non-repeatable; they were events by plot and doesn't reflect any character's actual power: it's why his warpstone refineries at Nagashizzar were destroyed. Same thing with the early Slaan's cataclysmic magic - it was fueled by the geomantic web - it's what let them shift the planet's orbit, change the climate, shuffle around tectonic plates, destroy armies with a single spell. With the web gone, they're no longer as powerful - it was power by plot and never reflected in actual game rules.

[Pervy]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Heinz:

Tour? lol. It was Nagash who made the tomb kings when his ritual failed when he was killed.

No, it was Grand Hierophant Khatep (the religious head of the Mortuary Cult's hieratic council) that raised Settra using Nehekharan rites, he took control of the tomb kings in order to fight Nagash and the Nehekharan undead enthralled under him.

Its the whole reason Grand Hierophant Khatep is exiled (he raised them before their promised perfect immortality was ready).

When using Necromancy the undead are bound to your will, its not even necessarily their original soul inhabiting the corpse.

With Nehekharan rites they aren't bound to you that way. That said, many of them still end up losing their personalities unless they have a strong will.

If the spell had not faild the tombkings would just be an undead host.

Settra Didt rise since hes binding and warding was that good.
Hence why he had to be broken out, and when he did he was not happy. He didt raise as a perfect body he was told he would be. But he did put the house in order.

Edit: they were never going to be ready with the perfect bodys.
Atleast not if you read the books, since Nagash killed everyone with warpstone tainted water and such.