dreadquake mortars needs a nerf

[LUCKY !! ソラ！]

Sacrifice nearly half of my army just to get into melee range is ridiculous.
One shot from the mortars just wipe one whole unit in an instant. And I was spacing them out correctly, rushing towards enemy lines.

[The Ohio Question]

İlk olarak Lampros tarafından gönderildi:

Just a screenshot to demonstrate the Dreadquake's firepower:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2987570164

I know it's against an AI, but two things to emphasize here:

First, I could not have remotely approached this kind of damage with any other artillery in a similar circumstances. Frankly, I doubt I could've done even HALF of this damage with any other artillery in a similar circumstances. The issue then is that the Dreadquake's damage is out of proportion to any similar unit. In fact, I've not seen any non-character unit that can do this other than the initial version of the Thunderbarge.

Second, the circumstances. Note that this was my third fight in the same turn with the same army, and I had eaten attacks from two LLs. So my army was depleted beyond help. So not much of an infantry screen to protect the Dreadquake. As a result, the Dreadquake DID NOT EVEN GET TO FIRE MUCH!

If you don't think this performance is over-powered and needs redressing, then you don't give a sheet about balance.

*glances at what the greenskins actually had*

Oh look, its almost all infantry, the only thing Dreads are amazing against.

Yeah give me 1 Sky-junk and i could easily hit that number or higher on its damage against those armies mate. Corner hump, wait for the enemy to bunch up, switch to manual aiming and repeatedly shoot strait down, and you can kill entire stacks of infantry like its nothing. #balloonmasterrace.

Im struggling to see how they are op when i can do the exact same work, cheaper, faster turn wise, with some angry Chinese Helium.

Hell with some luck i can get in that rough ballpark with a Hellstorm against pure infantry, granted it is very luck dependent cause of the horrid accuracy.

As a olive branch, if Quakes need anything changed on them, its their absurdly long range, being able to start firing before anything else is their true strength, not the damage.

[The Ohio Question]

İlk olarak Isaac tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak The Ohio Question tarafından gönderildi:

"And if you shoot at infantry with Canons then you just suck at the game" pretty sure his point is cannons being bad at killing infantry is silly.

Its a cannon, they kill infantry really, really well. Napoleon dabbed on all of Europe for 12 years with cannons.

Didn't knew Napoleon was in warhammer. Thanks for the info.

sigh, you know what the point is, cannons arbitrarily being made to not be great against infantry is a game decision, and a really dumb one at that.

Its a cannon, it shoots cannon balls, in the lore of warhammer, that kills infantry quite well. In real life it kills people quite well, in the REST OF THE TOTAL WAR SERIES, it kills quite well.

It makes no sense to make them a only anti large weapon.

[Lampros]

İlk olarak The Ohio Question tarafından gönderildi:

Yeah give me 1 Sky-junk and i could easily hit that number or higher on its damage against those armies mate. Corner hump, wait for the enemy to bunch up, switch to manual aiming and repeatedly shoot strait down, and you can kill entire stacks of infantry like its nothing. #balloonmasterrace.

Im struggling to see how they are op when i can do the exact same work, cheaper, faster turn wise, with some angry Chinese Helium.

Hell with some luck i can get in that rough ballpark with a Hellstorm against pure infantry, granted it is very luck dependent cause of the horrid accuracy.

As a olive branch, if Quakes need anything changed on them, its their absurdly long range, being able to start firing before anything else is their true strength, not the damage.

You absolutely cannot. The Sky Junk doesn't have enough damage and ammo to remotely approach those numbers even if it leisurely expended all its ammo. I've tested it. And, as I've said, the Dreadquake didn't even get to come close to exhausting all its ammo - which brings up the other issue. It not only does massive damage, but it does it in such a short time. So one copy alone can disproportionately tilt the balance in a way no other generic unit can - other than the initial version of the Thunderbarge.

[Uugly]

The game getting more and more unfun to play

[Fryskar]

İlk olarak Lampros tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak The Ohio Question tarafından gönderildi:

Yeah give me 1 Sky-junk and i could easily hit that number or higher on its damage against those armies mate. Corner hump, wait for the enemy to bunch up, switch to manual aiming and repeatedly shoot strait down, and you can kill entire stacks of infantry like its nothing. #balloonmasterrace.

Im struggling to see how they are op when i can do the exact same work, cheaper, faster turn wise, with some angry Chinese Helium.

Hell with some luck i can get in that rough ballpark with a Hellstorm against pure infantry, granted it is very luck dependent cause of the horrid accuracy.

As a olive branch, if Quakes need anything changed on them, its their absurdly long range, being able to start firing before anything else is their true strength, not the damage.

You absolutely cannot. The Sky Junk doesn't have enough damage and ammo to remotely approach those numbers even if it leisurely expended all its ammo. I've tested it. And, as I've said, the Dreadquake didn't even get to come close to exhausting all its ammo - which brings up the other issue. It not only does massive damage, but it does it in such a short time. So one copy alone can disproportionately tilt the balance in a way no other generic unit can - other than the initial version of the Thunderbarge.

The only question is how hard does the enemy blob.
100k doesn't sound difficult with a junk vs a blob.

[The Ohio Question]

İlk olarak Lampros tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak The Ohio Question tarafından gönderildi:

Yeah give me 1 Sky-junk and i could easily hit that number or higher on its damage against those armies mate. Corner hump, wait for the enemy to bunch up, switch to manual aiming and repeatedly shoot strait down, and you can kill entire stacks of infantry like its nothing. #balloonmasterrace.

Im struggling to see how they are op when i can do the exact same work, cheaper, faster turn wise, with some angry Chinese Helium.

Hell with some luck i can get in that rough ballpark with a Hellstorm against pure infantry, granted it is very luck dependent cause of the horrid accuracy.

As a olive branch, if Quakes need anything changed on them, its their absurdly long range, being able to start firing before anything else is their true strength, not the damage.

You absolutely cannot. The Sky Junk doesn't have enough damage and ammo to remotely approach those numbers even if it leisurely expended all its ammo. I've tested it. And, as I've said, the Dreadquake didn't even get to come close to exhausting all its ammo - which brings up the other issue. It not only does massive damage, but it does it in such a short time. So one copy alone can disproportionately tilt the balance in a way no other generic unit can - other than the initial version of the Thunderbarge.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3313173059

You sure bout that bud? cause a few mins of lazy testing shows i can 100% hit that with less than 25% of ammo used lol. (hell not even that, its so little i cant even see the missing amount under the yin yang thingy) Yeah its under the best circumstances imaginable as far as terrain gos, but the point remains.

"iv tested it" mhm.

[Lampros]

İlk olarak Fryskar tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Lampros tarafından gönderildi:

You absolutely cannot. The Sky Junk doesn't have enough damage and ammo to remotely approach those numbers even if it leisurely expended all its ammo. I've tested it. And, as I've said, the Dreadquake didn't even get to come close to exhausting all its ammo - which brings up the other issue. It not only does massive damage, but it does it in such a short time. So one copy alone can disproportionately tilt the balance in a way no other generic unit can - other than the initial version of the Thunderbarge.

The only question is how hard does the enemy blob.
100k doesn't sound difficult with a junk vs a blob.

I've played a lot of Cathay; and I've never even seen anything approaching those numbers. Perhaps theoretically you can in the most optimum scenarios. But the point is that the scenario wasn't optimum here. As I've said, the Dreadquake couldn't even expend close to full of its ammo, because the entire infantry other than the RoR melted, because they had so few units left from the prior two battles. So the other half of the equation is how fast the Dreadquake can damage. If you can delete 3-4 infantry units entire before lines even clash, then the battle is immeasurably tilted.

[Lampros]

İlk olarak The Ohio Question tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Lampros tarafından gönderildi:

You absolutely cannot. The Sky Junk doesn't have enough damage and ammo to remotely approach those numbers even if it leisurely expended all its ammo. I've tested it. And, as I've said, the Dreadquake didn't even get to come close to exhausting all its ammo - which brings up the other issue. It not only does massive damage, but it does it in such a short time. So one copy alone can disproportionately tilt the balance in a way no other generic unit can - other than the initial version of the Thunderbarge.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3313173059

You sure bout that bud? cause a few mins of lazy testing shows i can 100% hit that with less than 25% of ammo used lol. Yeah its under the best circumstances imaginable as far as terrain gos, but the point remains.

"iv tested it" mhm.

See what I replied above. "Tested" in actual campaign situations - not optimal scenarios rigged for the highest kill ratio. Nonetheless, I concede I was wrong in thinking that was not even theoretically possible.

[Fryskar]

İlk olarak Lampros tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Fryskar tarafından gönderildi:

The only question is how hard does the enemy blob.
100k doesn't sound difficult with a junk vs a blob.

I've played a lot of Cathay; and I've never even seen anything approaching those numbers. Perhaps theoretically you can in the most optimum scenarios. But the point is that the scenario wasn't optimum here. As I've said, the Dreadquake couldn't even expend close to full of its ammo, because the entire infantry other than the RoR melted, because they had so few units left from the prior two battles. So the other half of the equation is how fast the Dreadquake can damage. If you can delete 3-4 infantry units entire before lines even clash, then the battle is immeasurably tilted.

Shouldn't be that difficult with the junk if most others don't do much dmg.
I don't think a DQ can route on avg 3-4 units before the lines meet unless blobbing is involved, it got one of the longest reload times. If you get lucky, it might happen.

And 1 shot on multiple, soft, blobbed targets probably does 10-15k dmg if not more.

[The Ohio Question]

İlk olarak Lampros tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak The Ohio Question tarafından gönderildi:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3313173059

You sure bout that bud? cause a few mins of lazy testing shows i can 100% hit that with less than 25% of ammo used lol. Yeah its under the best circumstances imaginable as far as terrain gos, but the point remains.

"iv tested it" mhm.

See what I replied above. "Tested" in actual campaign situations - not optimal scenarios rigged for the highest kill ratio. Nonetheless, I concede I was wrong in thinking that was not even theoretically possible.

Basic line of jade warriors camping on almost any corner map with lead to fairly similar results if you micro the blimp yourself mate. Its literally the reason im not allowed to play cathay in my friends group vs camps anymore lol. (the blimp itself, not corner camping, does not work well genst humans)

Generic line of Jade soldiers, jade archers, and a junk or 2 can beat almost anything in the game outside of some doomstacks. And for the cost of upkeep and hiring, that is a cheeeaaaap army for how much work they can do.

Dreadquakes, meanwhile, cost exuberantly more to field and protect. Individually overall, yeah they can prob on average out damage my jade sky junk dunk stacks.

But i can pump them out en mass for the cost of your one good army lol. Not to mention the infrastructure problems Chorfs have.

When you factor in the higher gold cost, the raw production, lead time changes, slaves, armaments to up the unit cap to just make ONE dreadquake, vs china mass pumping out cheap jade stacks with the occasional balloons? No contest, the dark lands are gonna be Tibetened annexed into greater Cathay in no time.

[TcT Goth98]

İlk olarak The Ohio Question tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Lampros tarafından gönderildi:

See what I replied above. "Tested" in actual campaign situations - not optimal scenarios rigged for the highest kill ratio. Nonetheless, I concede I was wrong in thinking that was not even theoretically possible.

Basic line of jade warriors camping on almost any corner map with lead to fairly similar results if you micro the blimp yourself mate. Its literally the reason im not allowed to play cathay in my friends group vs camps anymore lol. (the blimp itself, not corner camping, does not work well genst humans)

Generic line of Jade soldiers, jade archers, and a junk or 2 can beat almost anything in the game outside of some doomstacks. And for the cost of upkeep and hiring, that is a cheeeaaaap army for how much work they can do.

Dreadquakes, meanwhile, cost exuberantly more to field and protect. Individually overall, yeah they can prob on average out damage my jade sky junk dunk stacks.

But i can pump them out en mass for the cost of your one good army lol. Not to mention the infrastructure problems Chorfs have.

When you factor in the higher gold cost, the raw production, lead time changes, slaves, armaments to up the unit cap to just make ONE dreadquake, vs china mass pumping out cheap jade stacks with the occasional balloons? No contest, the dark lands are gonna be Tibetened annexed into greater Cathay in no time.

110% this. The Dreadquake is one of the most expensive units in the game. For the price and cost to use, it damn well better kill more than half a unit per game. Some people want artillery to be so bad that there would be no point in bringing them anymore.

[Imposter]

"It's not fair the US army are using shotguns in the trenches!" -Germans in WW1. (While lobbing mustard gas)

[The Ohio Question]

İlk olarak TcT Goth98 tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak The Ohio Question tarafından gönderildi:

Basic line of jade warriors camping on almost any corner map with lead to fairly similar results if you micro the blimp yourself mate. Its literally the reason im not allowed to play cathay in my friends group vs camps anymore lol. (the blimp itself, not corner camping, does not work well genst humans)

Generic line of Jade soldiers, jade archers, and a junk or 2 can beat almost anything in the game outside of some doomstacks. And for the cost of upkeep and hiring, that is a cheeeaaaap army for how much work they can do.

Dreadquakes, meanwhile, cost exuberantly more to field and protect. Individually overall, yeah they can prob on average out damage my jade sky junk dunk stacks.

But i can pump them out en mass for the cost of your one good army lol. Not to mention the infrastructure problems Chorfs have.

When you factor in the higher gold cost, the raw production, lead time changes, slaves, armaments to up the unit cap to just make ONE dreadquake, vs china mass pumping out cheap jade stacks with the occasional balloons? No contest, the dark lands are gonna be Tibetened annexed into greater Cathay in no time.

110% this. The Dreadquake is one of the most expensive units in the game. For the price and cost to use, it damn well better kill more than half a unit per game. Some people want artillery to be so bad that there would be no point in bringing them anymore.

I think thats what allot of people miss when talking balance on the Chorfs.

Like, yes, yes when fully set up, fully augmented with all the armament upgrades on their units, chorfs are monstrously op.

How-ev-er, it takes a ludicrous amount of time/resources to get there. They have by far the most set up of any faction in the game to get to their op state. They have unit caps that no one else but the tomb kings have, they have a constant need for slaves that no one else but the dark elfs have, they have to juggle, what, FOUR different currencies?

Any other faction can get to nigh untouchable status faster, cheaper, and more consistently, in far greater numbers.

[Man of Culture]

İlk olarak The Ohio Question tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Man of Culture tarafından gönderildi:

"Originally posted by Man of Culture:
There is no easy way to kill this without incurring a ton of casualties unless you have a very specific army composition comprised of a lot of single entity units and/or have large unit sniping tools at your disposal."

Ok, so which part of this particular phrase doesn't add up? Is it the part where I said it's easy to counter if you specifically build an army or have specific units to deal with it? Or the WHOLE part where I implied that I am aware of how to deal with it and my point is that it's needlessly overtuned?

Or do you just not like it when people want to adjust the game to make it less tedious and boring to play?

Again. You're coming at me from the angle like I literally have no clue how to play the game and it's kind of getting to the point of you trying too bully and rage bait me and distract from the topic.

If you think this is bulling, you had a good childhood my friend, believe me on that if nothing else.

Im not trying to say you have no clue, but if you are in a situation where dealing with a very easy problem to deal with is tedious and "overtuned" to you, then maybe you need to experiment with different strategies? Frankly, this game isnt hard in any situation past turn like 30. If you dont lose in the opening establishment phase, your never going to.

" Is it the part where I said it's easy to counter if you specifically build an army or have specific units to deal with it?" but thats the thing, its really not that specific to counter dreadquakes, or any arty for that matter.

Flying units, single entity monsters, most heros/casters, cav will all do it consistently with even BASIC positioning and counterplay.

The only army builds that are going to suffer from quakes are mono blob infantry armies, something you will only have at the start of the camp (when the enemy isnt even fielding dreadquakes).

So assuming you are not building your stacks poorly, which i am assuming you are not doing because you say you are not, what is the problem? The only rosters, and i mean only one that should realistically actually suffer from quakes later on is the vampire counts or Nurgle, and even then they have the tools to take care of it fairly well.

Ok so what you're saying is you're completely agreeing with me on all points. Good to know thank you.

[Lampros]

İlk olarak The Ohio Question tarafından gönderildi:

Dreadquakes, meanwhile, cost exuberantly more to field and protect. Individually overall, yeah they can prob on average out damage my jade sky junk dunk stacks.

But i can pump them out en mass for the cost of your one good army lol. Not to mention the infrastructure problems Chorfs have.

When you factor in the higher gold cost, the raw production, lead time changes, slaves, armaments to up the unit cap to just make ONE dreadquake, vs china mass pumping out cheap jade stacks with the occasional balloons? No contest, the dark lands are gonna be Tibetened annexed into greater Cathay in no time.

Yes, I understand Dreadquakes are considerably more expensive than alternative artillery options. And thus, when costs are factored, they might not be that OP. However, that is a consideration if the player is using them. But the AI can in large part ignore economic limitations. (Do Chaos Dwarf army caps even apply to the AI?) Hence, it is still un-balanced. The AI's tendency to ignore economic constraints - especially at the higher levels - is why we should have units that are balanced in terms of absolute power, not just power relative to cost.