dreadquake mortars needs a nerf

[LUCKY !! ソラ！]

Sacrifice nearly half of my army just to get into melee range is ridiculous.
One shot from the mortars just wipe one whole unit in an instant. And I was spacing them out correctly, rushing towards enemy lines.

[dulany67]

Originally posted by Jukelo:

So a piece of artillery designed to kill blobs killed your blobs?

Good thing you have access to: cavalry, skirmishers, fliers, SEMs, artillery, and last but not least, magic, to deal with artillery that needs to die quickly.

And Stalk.

[Enelith]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Where in hell did that stupid idea come that single player game = no balance needed?

Dunno, I didn't say that.

What I implied however is stop nerfing things to make them plain and boring.
Those units are also tools AI can use to give us a challenge in battles (I really prefered WH3 when it just came out, where you could at least lose in RoC, but that's another topic).
If they dumb it down, so be it, but people shouldn't complain if they feel the game is too easy.

But I'm actually in favor for extremes as far as I'm concerned, emphasizing both a faction strength and weaknesses.
I don't necessarily want "balance" (in the sense of "plain" ~ it's not supposed to be balanced. Cathay should be struggling to hold the Wall, they aren't anymore), but there should be tweaks / fixes when there's an anomaly. I want faction's Identity.

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Those who want crazy should be the ones to use mods, not the people who want a strategy game to be actually about strategy.

I'm not a mod user. But I agree the real crazy should be coming with mods.
However, the game is not crazy as it is tbh... (similar to the recent topic regarding Bloodthirsters being underwhelming / disappointing ~ it's same for all those major Daemons). If there's no danger / risk on the battlefield, there's no real need for strategy... Just ram into it.

[cernodan]

Sometimes I wish posts like this would have a video attached to them. Imagine the hilarity of seeing someone trying to infantry rush and the enemy has artillery.
This is basically WW2 soviet wave tactics.
Gid gud

[capybaras are cool]

it is pretty stupid that cd arty is just so much better than other factions, even ones that are supposed to be shooting based and/or technological masters like the cd

[Hieronymous]

Originally posted by Jukelo:

So a piece of artillery designed to kill blobs killed your blobs?

Good thing you have access to: cavalry, skirmishers, fliers, SEMs, artillery, and last but not least, magic, to deal with artillery that needs to die quickly.

Thank you.

I'm having a tough time fighting the spicy dawi as Vampire Counts. But I can, at least, deal with their artillery by a variety of means.

Including an infantry rush - there is some number of zombies and throw-away lords that will eventually overwhelm them and by George I am getting close to it.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by Enelith:

I'm not a mod user. But I agree the real crazy should be coming with mods.
However, the game is not crazy as it is tbh... (similar to the recent topic regarding Bloodthirsters being underwhelming / disappointing ~ it's same for all those major Daemons). If there's no danger / risk on the battlefield, there's no real need for strategy... Just ram into it.

It's crazy biased in favor of the player. A Dreadquake Mortar in the hands of the AI is annoying but hampered and fettered by CA insisting on terrible targeting priorities for it (on all difficulties, it never targets what it should target IE the player's ranged units). In the hands of the player it's just another easy-mode cheat.

[Aas]

It's Chaos dwarf artillery
Chaos dwarf artillery.
Master crafted artillery made by industrialized dwarfs empored by deamons, blood rituals and chaos magic.

Of course it's some of the best artillery there is.

Just like the lizardmens dead saurian will always be the biggest monster until the thunder lizard kicks it off the throne, like elf crafted, magic infused bows will always be the best bows around. It's their stick!

There is a reason you get limits for chaos dwarfs units. A reason they have to make due with orc and goblin slaves in the early game. The mortar is not some early game unit. It's one of the most elite pieces in a race know for their devestating artillery, master craftsmanship, siege proficiency and focus on elite units.

And is still has weaknesses.
Of course it does.

I don't find it as precise as it is sometimes portayed. In my experience, especially at long ranges, the Queen bess is more reliable.

The dread quake also proves to be as devestating to it's enemies as it is to it's fellow dwarfs. Why not bait some shots into Chaos dwarf units with your single entities as an idea? Which are pretty much IMMUNE to the dread quake because it's still just a mortar. Or just bait it where it's safe to land. The projectile is slow and highly visible.

The dread quake also is just one unit. It can be killed, destroyed, sniped by appropriate units. Chaos dwarfs don't have traditional cannons to snipe single entities on long ranges either, only aoe damage. So cannons? Fast monsters? Cavallery? Dragons for example? If the enemy has two dreadquakes you should have something equivalent, no? Don't know which races you are playing.

Also

Originally posted by capybaras are cool:

it is pretty stupid that cd arty is just so much better than other factions, even ones that are supposed to be shooting based and/or technological masters like the cd

Which races?
Dwarfs are literally where Chaos dwarfs come from so the are the same but chaos dwarfs are on an industrialized reckless rampage and all their stuff is empowed by dark magic and they are not hold back by tradition. Of course their technical stuff is better.

But they are even less numerous than the original dwarfs and have to rely on greenskin slaves.
No traditional handguns, no slayers, no cheap blasting charges, no traditional cannons jadda jadda jadda.

Skaven? Ramshakle constructions empowerd by warpstone. Strong, but weaker for beeing skaven crafted.
But, come on, plague claw catapult not strong enough? Cheap, reliable, spamable? Posion Wind mortars don't delete infantry? The avalanche mortar?

Empire -> Highest range artillery ever Hellstrom + Sunmaker. Also cannons that can snipe artillery. OK yeah, it's not a dreadquake but again Chaos dwarfs are supposed to have like THE strongest artillery piece. Empire is combined Arms. Flexible. But the hellstorm doesn't care it obliterates all the same since Warhammer 1.

Zerkovich tested the dreadquake against high elf spearmen and it's biased because they have high leadership??? Spearmen? Shoot them with the hellstorm tell me how good they are holding up.



Tldr: Deal with it. Make different army compositions and try different tactics. Cav, fast monsters, single entities, counter snipe, Magic, evasion.

[capybaras are cool]

Originally posted by Aas:

It's Chaos dwarf artillery
Chaos dwarf artillery.
Master crafted artillery made by industrialized dwarfs empored by deamons, blood rituals and chaos magic.

Of course it's some of the best artillery there is.

Just like the lizardmens dead saurian will always be the biggest monster until the thunder lizard kicks it off the throne, like elf crafted, magic infused bows will always be the best bows around. It's their stick!

There is a reason you get limits for chaos dwarfs units. A reason they have to make due with orc and goblin slaves in the early game. The mortar is not some early game unit. It's one of the most elite pieces in a race know for their devestating artillery, master craftsmanship, siege proficiency and focus on elite units.

And is still has weaknesses.
Of course it does.

I don't find it as precise as it is sometimes portayed. In my experience, especially at long ranges, the Queen bess is more reliable.

The dread quake also proves to be as devestating to it's enemies as it is to it's fellow dwarfs. Why not bait some shots into Chaos dwarf units with your single entities as an idea? Which are pretty much IMMUNE to the dread quake because it's still just a mortar. Or just bait it where it's safe to land. The projectile is slow and highly visible.

The dread quake also is just one unit. It can be killed, destroyed, sniped by appropriate units. Chaos dwarfs don't have traditional cannons to snipe single entities on long ranges either, only aoe damage. So cannons? Fast monsters? Cavallery? Dragons for example? If the enemy has two dreadquakes you should have something equivalent, no? Don't know which races you are playing.

Also

Originally posted by capybaras are cool:

it is pretty stupid that cd arty is just so much better than other factions, even ones that are supposed to be shooting based and/or technological masters like the cd

Which races?
Dwarfs are literally where Chaos dwarfs come from so the are the same but chaos dwarfs are on an industrialized reckless rampage and all their stuff is empowed by dark magic and they are not hold back by tradition. Of course their technical stuff is better.

But they are even less numerous than the original dwarfs and have to rely on greenskin slaves.
No traditional handguns, no slayers, no cheap blasting charges, no traditional cannons jadda jadda jadda.

Skaven? Ramshakle constructions empowerd by warpstone. Strong, but weaker for beeing skaven crafted.
But, come on, plague claw catapult not strong enough? Cheap, reliable, spamable? Posion Wind mortars don't delete infantry? The avalanche mortar?

Empire -> Highest range artillery ever Hellstrom + Sunmaker. Also cannons that can snipe artillery. OK yeah, it's not a dreadquake but again Chaos dwarfs are supposed to have like THE strongest artillery piece. Empire is combined Arms. Flexible. But the hellstorm doesn't care it obliterates all the same since Warhammer 1.

Zerkovich tested the dreadquake against high elf spearmen and it's biased because they have high leadership??? Spearmen? Shoot them with the hellstorm tell me how good they are holding up.



Tldr: Deal with it. Make different army compositions and try different tactics. Cav, fast monsters, single entities, counter snipe, Magic, evasion.

sorry i aint reading all that

[Aas]

Originally posted by capybaras are cool:

sorry i aint reading all that

Then let me just fix the original statement how I view the situation.

Original:

Originally posted by capybaras are cool:

it is pretty stupid that cd arty is just so much better than other factions, even ones that are supposed to be shooting based and/or technological masters like the cd

Fixed:

Originally posted by Aas:

it is pretty reasonable that cd arty is very strong like some pieces of other races, since chaos dwarfs are supposed to be shooting based and technological masters like other races but also empowerd by chaos

[Zefar]

Their artillery units are strongest in all but 1 part.

That is damage to single entity units.
Otherwise

Second longest range with Helstorm only having about 20 points further. But Helstorm split up their rockets on such range they lose a lot of power.
It's a single entity meaning it has high durability.
Best damage because Queen Bess is a special unit. You can have several of these very easily.
One hit does enough damage to a unit where it basically isn't a threat to you.

There is no other unit in other races category that does so much more than their counter parts.

The only reasonable counter? Flying lords or heroes on mounts. Maybe stalk units if the map isn't small enough.

If you have normal ground units you have to run away but due to it's range it can cover most of the map pretty quickly.

Originally posted by Aas:

But they are even less numerous than the original dwarfs and have to rely on greenskin slaves.
No traditional handguns, no slayers, no cheap blasting charges, no traditional cannons jadda jadda jadda.

Chaos Dwarfs Blunderbuss units can wipe out any attacking lord pretty easily in almost a single volley from 3-4 of them. Something Dwarfs blasting charges can't do. The same unit can wipe out other advancing units very easily.
Their normal ranged units are also decent.
Not having canons isn't such a big deal. Normal cannons are only really good for dealing with walls and some large single entity units.
They do have the Chaos Artillery unit which is one of the better normal artillery unit in the game. As it does high damage to units and heroes. It also seeks out the enemy so it almost never miss.

Originally posted by Aas:

Empire -> Highest range artillery ever Hellstrom + Sunmaker. Also cannons that can snipe artillery. OK yeah, it's not a dreadquake but again Chaos dwarfs are supposed to have like THE strongest artillery piece. Empire is combined Arms. Flexible. But the hellstorm doesn't care it obliterates all the same since Warhammer 1.

Helstorm are good but on long range they are not that much of a problem. Sure one missile might hit you per volley but there is a chance all will miss. But one missile won't do that much. If you have several then yes it'll be effective.

One Dreadquake mortar though? That unit might as well call quits because it'll be overwhelmed by the enemy units on the front line. What about a couple of dread quake mortars?

It's range is a bit too much for the power it has imo. Helstorm makes up for it by making the missile inaccurate on range. Queen Bess is a special unit where you might just be able to have one of it. I haven't played that faction in a long time.
Here you can recruit several of them.

[Jukelo]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Where in hell did that stupid idea come that single player game = no balance needed?

Balance is a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is a tool to help game devs attain a goal, typically that of improving variety, but it isn't an absolute requirement.

What if a specific faction or unit in WHTW is overpowered? What of it? Are you going to only play that faction or that unit in your campaigns?
Unless you're very sad and badly need validation by beating single player video games, chances are you pick factions and army composition based on theme and how you feel that day, not based on how meta things are, so OP or UP isn't going to factor in much in your decision in a casual game like the TW games are (and always were).

And the existence of an imbalance isn't just a negative either as it can add flavour to the experience. This is true of both SP and MP, although obviously in a competitive context theme and flavour take a backseat to considerations of fairness, but even there there's always individuals up for an actual, lopsided challenge.

[Raider Deci]

Originally posted by LUCKY !! ソラ！:

Originally posted by Raider Deci:

So you had a hard time against a unit & now you want a nerf......sigh. Classic.

I said "mortars" you can't read English and wants to troll.

Looks who's talking. I said a unit, obviously referreing to the type of unit you mentioned since you did not give any more info.

You failed & got trashed by the AI, but instead of adapting your gameplay you just come here & demands a nerf. Git Gud

Originally posted by Jukelo:

So a piece of artillery designed to kill blobs killed your blobs?

Good thing you have access to: cavalry, skirmishers, fliers, SEMs, artillery, and last but not least, magic, to deal with artillery that needs to die quickly.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by Jukelo:

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Where in hell did that stupid idea come that single player game = no balance needed?

Balance is a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is a tool to help game devs attain a goal, typically that of improving variety, but it isn't an absolute requirement.

What if a specific faction or unit in WHTW is overpowered? What of it? Are you going to only play that faction or that unit in your campaigns?
Unless you're very sad and badly need validation by beating single player video games, chances are you pick factions and army composition based on theme and how you feel that day, not based on how meta things are, so OP or UP isn't going to factor in much in your decision in a casual game like the TW games are (and always were).

And the existence of an imbalance isn't just a negative either as it can add flavour to the experience. This is true of both SP and MP, although obviously in a competitive context theme and flavour take a backseat to considerations of fairness, but even there there's always individuals up for an actual, lopsided challenge.

The imbalance in this game is that everything is tilted in favor of the player and that the game becomes a boring snoozefest as a result. CA has almost surgically removed every little piece of challenge and pressure from the game. The AI is cowardly and passive, the player becomes unbeatably powerful in a very short time and doing so requires no skill and thinking.

And that's on all difficulties. Even mods can't fix it thanks to CA being so pervasive in their constant dumbing down efforts.

That's where balance has to be restored. Winning without even trying all the time does not hold my interest in the least.

[Resyled]

Originally posted by Jukelo:

So a piece of artillery designed to kill blobs killed your blobs?

Good thing you have access to: cavalry, skirmishers, fliers, SEMs, artillery, and last but not least, magic, to deal with artillery that needs to die quickly.

blobs? bro its smoking a single unit from its full range on its first shot without direct LOS (its using a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ non-speaking flying DEMON as a radioman apparently) the rocket/mortar impacts the dead center of a unit, even when they're moving. The aftershock slowdown means that half the people who got knocked down aren't going to escape. It reloads insanely fast for its ability to kill an entire unit. Oh and I'm pretty sure it has SLIGHT tracking ability. Even a modern artillery computer would blush at their ability to track/lock/fire on a target in like 10 seconds.

they're also extremely hard to kill, and are able to fire their rocket from point blank anyway.. they're absolutely busted when the CD's bring like 5+

[ChaosKhan]

Originally posted by Resyled:

blobs? bro its smoking a single unit from its full range on its first shot without direct LOS (its using a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ non-speaking flying DEMON as a radioman apparently) the rocket/mortar impacts the dead center of a unit, even when they're moving. The aftershock slowdown means that half the people who got knocked down aren't going to escape. It reloads insanely fast for its ability to kill an entire unit. Oh and I'm pretty sure it has SLIGHT tracking ability. Even a modern artillery computer would blush at their ability to track/lock/fire on a target in like 10 seconds.

they're also extremely hard to kill, and are able to fire their rocket from point blank anyway.. they're absolutely busted when the CD's bring like 5+

I think the most cancerous about it is the aftershock. When fighting a stack containing dreadquakes, you are bound to lose multiple units no matter how experienced they are, because with the aftershock slowdown, there is no escape for the couple that survive the initial explosion.

The way unit replenishment is designed, this unit is simply disgusting to fight. Either you cheese the AI, or you'll have ro re-recruit whole infantry units after the battle no matter how well you play.