Why is every spell now a Melkoth Miasma in terms of killing units? Any mods to "fix" this?

[NITRO]

Seriously, I was ok with most WOM/Combat Magic changes from TWW2 and TWW3 but one that irks me and makes me extremely frustrated is how spells tend to not outright kill units anymore. Its extremely frustrating seeing a giant meteor hitting a blob of 500 rats and having only 17 kills and a gajilion damage done. Or seeing wind of death personally rip the souls out of a hundred soldiers but the unit suffering basically no losses.

I get that the focus is to make melee unit feel more useful compared to TWW2, but the problem is that this change makes so that the targeted unit's combat potential remains the same until you deal with each entity. If this was made in only a couple spells, that'd be fine, but right now every single spell deals damage in this exact same way.

I hope CA tweaks this but in the meanwhile does anyone have a mod that makes spells deal damage how it did in TWW2? I dont really care about the campaign WOM change or the knowledgeable trait, just the combat spells.

[fenlander]

I like how the AI will dodge the spells at the last minute, and not get hit. Yet when you do this, you still get hit for quite a bit of damage.

[Falaris]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von NITRO:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Falaris:

'base' spells are often not very strong, but try things like overcast thunderbolt for shocking amounts of target damage. I think it's about 1600 damage on hit.

The problem isn't the damage number but how it spreads the damage out to every single entity and doesn't finish them off. For instance, in TWW2 a wind of death would deal about say 1k damage, but it would kill 100 out of 120 entities in a unity. In WH3 it still deals the same amount of damage, but it kills 10 out of 120 entities, leaving that unit's combat potential basically the same since they don't suffer from the wounds mechanic single entities do.

You didn't try it, huh?

It's not a 'it does 50 damage to 30 entities so it does 1500 damage total' thing. It does 1536 damage to each target in the area. That's sufficient to wreck a lot of things. It's best against certain slow or mostly stationary targets, though.

I do agree that WoM, e.g., could feel more satisfying. But it does do 72 damage overcast. That's enough to kill some units outright.

But would it be better for the game if you could wipe out several elite units in one cast? I really don't think so.

[NITRO]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Falaris:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von NITRO:

The problem isn't the damage number but how it spreads the damage out to every single entity and doesn't finish them off. For instance, in TWW2 a wind of death would deal about say 1k damage, but it would kill 100 out of 120 entities in a unity. In WH3 it still deals the same amount of damage, but it kills 10 out of 120 entities, leaving that unit's combat potential basically the same since they don't suffer from the wounds mechanic single entities do.

You didn't try it, huh?

It's not a 'it does 50 damage to 30 entities so it does 1500 damage total' thing. It does 1536 damage to each target in the area. That's sufficient to wreck a lot of things. It's best against certain slow or mostly stationary targets, though.

I do agree that WoM, e.g., could feel more satisfying. But it does do 72 damage overcast. That's enough to kill some units outright.

But would it be better for the game if you could wipe out several elite units in one cast? I really don't think so.

Did you play TWW2?
Do the following: play TWW2, and cast Deliverance of Itza or Wind of Death in a blob of enemies and then do the same in TWW3, the difference is startling.
Also, back in TWW2 elite units had more health per entity so there was less of them dying in one go, obviouly. In TWW3 even most gobbos survive the most devastating spells.

Again, in TWW3 all spells are acting like Melkoth's Miasma, where the unit took damage but almost no entity died from it, and thats boring.

[Falaris]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von NITRO:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Falaris:

You didn't try it, huh?

It's not a 'it does 50 damage to 30 entities so it does 1500 damage total' thing. It does 1536 damage to each target in the area. That's sufficient to wreck a lot of things. It's best against certain slow or mostly stationary targets, though.

I do agree that WoM, e.g., could feel more satisfying. But it does do 72 damage overcast. That's enough to kill some units outright.

But would it be better for the game if you could wipe out several elite units in one cast? I really don't think so.

Did you play TWW2?
Do the following: play TWW2, and cast Deliverance of Itza or Wind of Death in a blob of enemies and then do the same in TWW3, the difference is startling.
Also, back in TWW2 elite units had more health per entity so there was less of them dying in one go, obviouly. In TWW3 even most gobbos survive the most devastating spells.

Again, in TWW3 all spells are acting like Melkoth's Miasma, where the unit took damage but almost no entity died from it, and thats boring.

For the third time, did you try urammon's thunderbolt?

Obviously not, since you bring up unrelated points, or suggest it works differently from how it does. The thunderbolt WILL kill anything but SEM's in one hit. It does vastly more damage overcast than 'regular', and it will kill some SEM's in two hits.

And yes, I have 3300 hours in TWW2. I know WoD was more deadly then. I never suggested otherwise. But, if you remember it, you probably also remember all the strategies that said VC should use just skeletons and WoD to win every battle, and never bother with any good units. When that's the most often suggested strategy, that really suggests it didn't work the way it should.

But, then, that's the beauty of gaming today - if you want it that way despite how it would affect the game, there's mods for it.

[Fryskar]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von NITRO:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Falaris:

You didn't try it, huh?

It's not a 'it does 50 damage to 30 entities so it does 1500 damage total' thing. It does 1536 damage to each target in the area. That's sufficient to wreck a lot of things. It's best against certain slow or mostly stationary targets, though.

I do agree that WoM, e.g., could feel more satisfying. But it does do 72 damage overcast. That's enough to kill some units outright.

But would it be better for the game if you could wipe out several elite units in one cast? I really don't think so.

Did you play TWW2?
Do the following: play TWW2, and cast Deliverance of Itza or Wind of Death in a blob of enemies and then do the same in TWW3, the difference is startling.
Also, back in TWW2 elite units had more health per entity so there was less of them dying in one go, obviouly. In TWW3 even most gobbos survive the most devastating spells.

Again, in TWW3 all spells are acting like Melkoth's Miasma, where the unit took damage but almost no entity died from it, and thats boring.

Smells like mods.

If we compare tww2 gobbos and BOs with tww3, then we see that they received no changes in terms of hp or spell resist.

Gobbos die to the same things that were good at killing them in 2.

[Ashardalon]

spell kills dont give xp?
are you sure?
that seems like just cruel to tzeentch

[Ashardalon]

oh it being capped and spells not giving any are very different things
because its not like that wizard got any kills punching people to earn that xp

[MulticornRB]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Hurricane:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Ashardalon:

spell kills dont give xp?
are you sure?
that seems like just cruel to tzeentch

Yeah go check the exp gained end of battle with a wizard with 1000s of kills... no more exp than a unit with 100 kills.

It's probs capped so wizards can't just install spike to level 50

This is not correct. Units and characters earn xp in different ways:

For units it’s directly related to kills made in battle. That is the reason why hounds and artillery gain levels way faster than melee infantry. The xp is awarded instantaneously.

Characters gain xp post battle. Post battle xp depends on the total kills in battle overall and is not tied to kills made by an individual character, it is distributed (mostly) equally. This is the reason why a mage with 1000 kills is not leveling faster than a melee lord with 0 kills. Characters in the same army generally level up at the same speed. I think post battle xp is capped at 10000, in my eyes there is no evidence the spell kills do not give as xp.

[Falaris]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Hurricane:

This is bs...

Actually, it's pretty spot on. Lords and heroes gain xp depending on the army defeated and victory type. Units from how much damage they do. Heroes gain half the xp the lord gains (roughly).

Unless you meant the fact it works that way is BS, in which case, tough.

[NITRO]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Falaris:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Hurricane:

This is bs...

Actually, it's pretty spot on. Lords and heroes gain xp depending on the army defeated and victory type. Units from how much damage they do. Heroes gain half the xp the lord gains (roughly).

Unless you meant the fact it works that way is BS, in which case, tough.

Victory type no longer affects XP rewards since the victory type is unreliable asf, we've all been there.

Characters XP is now affected by the total amount of unit CARDS INVOLVED in battle, not how many units died in battle. Simple as.

So, for example: you fight against 3 full stacks of single entity units, so its 60 units in total, kill them all and win, your characters are awarded with X amounts of XP.
But if you fight against only one full stack of infantry, about 2000 units in total but theres only 20 unit cards, you'll get 1/3 of the XP of the other example.

[Sigma]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von NITRO:

Seriously, I was ok with most WOM/Combat Magic changes from TWW2 and TWW3 but one that irks me and makes me extremely frustrated is how spells tend to not outright kill units anymore. Its extremely frustrating seeing a giant meteor hitting a blob of 500 rats and having only 17 kills and a gajilion damage done. Or seeing wind of death personally rip the souls out of a hundred soldiers but the unit suffering basically no losses.

I get that the focus is to make melee unit feel more useful compared to TWW2, but the problem is that this change makes so that the targeted unit's combat potential remains the same until you deal with each entity. If this was made in only a couple spells, that'd be fine, but right now every single spell deals damage in this exact same way.

I hope CA tweaks this but in the meanwhile does anyone have a mod that makes spells deal damage how it did in TWW2? I dont really care about the campaign WOM change or the knowledgeable trait, just the combat spells.

magic was kinda nerfed from warhammer 2 unless you are playing some factions that buff it, like teclis, or cathay or morathi

still magic is the most devestating thing
one thing you need to look at is spell mastery.. second thing is look at the damage
you mentioned wind of death.. I think a few lords get some spell mastery which increases the effect of magic
secondly if you arnt overcasting wind of death its generally useless because magic doesnt bypass armor and spell resistance unless it has armor pen and is still subject to spell resist and wardsave.
but even in warhammer 2 I wouldnt use wind of death unless its overcasted
overcasting with vampire counts is kinda negated by the fact that they have healing out the ass
I tend to gravitate to spells with high armor pen, playing a campaign with teclis and had a battle last night where teclis got 100k damage vs clan pestilens just using chainlightning and flock of doom
another factor you might be overlooking is unit density, skaven units tend to be more spread out dont use wind/ and well spells when they are in this formation unless its like pit of shades that pulls the units to the center.
for whatever reason these factors, even if you know them via warhammer 2 they tend to be even more of a factor in warhammer 3.
try also using ther "other trickster shard" reduces spell resist to enemies.. very useful for vamp counts built with wind of death spamming.
unless CA for somereason dumps warhammer 3, I have a feeling vampsounts are getting an update here in the next year for jade vamps and neferata/nagash anyways, I think vamp counts are lagging behind quite a bit

[Faptor]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von NITRO:

seeing wind of death personally rip the souls out of a hundred soldiers but the unit suffering basically no losses.

That gave me a pretty hard chuckle.
Yeah, its annoying opening the ark of the covenant on t1 spearmen and having them basically untouched.
The only "Spell" ive noticed that still obliterates everything is the trusty Skaven Nuke (Snuke)

[Sigma]

also, im gonna be honest, wind death I think is bugged right now.. I dont think the overcast is being applied.. might be the case on other wind spells too, other spells seem to have the same function tho

[Sigma]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Faptor:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von NITRO:

seeing wind of death personally rip the souls out of a hundred soldiers but the unit suffering basically no losses.

That gave me a pretty hard chuckle.
Yeah, its annoying opening the ark of the covenant on t1 spearmen and having them basically untouched.
The only "Spell" ive noticed that still obliterates everything is the trusty Skaven Nuke (Snuke)

well non overcasted wind of death has always been really a complete waste.. I played vamp counts recently with isabellas vamp hero doomstack and a couple vargulfs and was still wiping the floor with everyone
I found non overcasted wind of death does exactly the same damage as overcasted.. but I though maybe it was just me, but with chorfs, cathay, and teclis I was absolutely obliterating everything with magic while my army had tea and watched unless I had some arty