The "Frenzy" & "Primal Fury" passives seem to have redundancies.

[silentsniper28]

Both the "Frenzy" passive and the "Primal Fury" passive give immune to psychology (ITP) when the unit is above 50% base leadership. Sounds nice, but "ITP" doesn't matter until your leadership is low enough to route, never actually doing anything.

What I think would be cool is to differentiate "Frenzy" from the Beastmen passive by making the "Frenzy" passive activate on low health (making ITP useful) and making the "Primal Fury" passive give "Fear" instead of "ITP" (making Beastmen cause fear on the initial charge).

I think these small changes if implemented would be fun and a more interesting take on these abilities.

[Cyiel]

The immune to psychology is there to avoid the Fear debuff (-8 leadership) to begin with and reduce the risk of getting below 50%. So no it's not redundant.

[DarkFenix]

I don't think you understand how fear and terror work. Being immune while over 50% leadership might just prevent you dropping below either 50% or terror rout level.

[Cyiel]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

I don't think you understand how fear and terror work. Being immune while over 50% leadership might just prevent you dropping below either 50% or terror rout level.

Actually... The Terror effect makes you rout at 13 leadership or less instead of 0 or less. I don't think there is even one unit with 26 leadership or less and Immune to Psychology. So it's irrelevant for Frenzy and Primal Fury. It's really just there to protect the unit against Fear. ^^

[DarkFenix]

Originally posted by Cyiel:

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

I don't think you understand how fear and terror work. Being immune while over 50% leadership might just prevent you dropping below either 50% or terror rout level.

Actually... The Terror effect makes you rout at 13 leadership or less instead of 0 or less. I don't think there is even one unit with 26 leadership or less and Immune to Psychology. So it's irrelevant for Frenzy and Primal Fury. It's really just there to protect the unit against Fear. ^^

Terror isn't something that simply activates on anything below 13 leadership, the attribute gives a chance to cause a big penalty on its own when that unit charges something (I don't know the chance or the size of the penalty), if that penalty drops morale below 13, terror rout occurs. I'm pretty sure that morale penalty is specific to causing terror routs and doesn't directly drop leadership, because my understanding has always been that terror interacts with leadership in a somewhat indirect fashion.

If a 60 leadership unit is at, say, 35 leadership, I'm pretty sure it could be terror routed.

[Cyiel]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Originally posted by Cyiel:

Actually... The Terror effect makes you rout at 13 leadership or less instead of 0 or less. I don't think there is even one unit with 26 leadership or less and Immune to Psychology. So it's irrelevant for Frenzy and Primal Fury. It's really just there to protect the unit against Fear. ^^

Terror isn't something that simply activates on anything below 13 leadership, the attribute gives a chance to cause a big penalty on its own when that unit charges something (I don't know the chance or the size of the penalty), if that penalty drops morale below 13, terror rout occurs. I'm pretty sure that morale penalty is specific to causing terror routs and doesn't directly drop leadership, because my understanding has always been that terror interacts with leadership in a somewhat indirect fashion.

If a 60 leadership unit is at, say, 35 leadership, I'm pretty sure it could be terror routed.

Enemies in a 5m radius around the terror causing units will instantly route if they drop below 13 Leadership. This is most likely to trigger when the terrifying unit charges into an enemy from behind, compounding negative leadership modifiers until they drop below 13 and rout. From the Wiki[totalwarwarhammer.fandom.com]

So it also protect from the leadership penality caused by a unit with Terror during a charge. So yeah it's also useful. I guess.

[silentsniper28]

Originally posted by Cyiel:

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Terror isn't something that simply activates on anything below 13 leadership, the attribute gives a chance to cause a big penalty on its own when that unit charges something (I don't know the chance or the size of the penalty), if that penalty drops morale below 13, terror rout occurs. I'm pretty sure that morale penalty is specific to causing terror routs and doesn't directly drop leadership, because my understanding has always been that terror interacts with leadership in a somewhat indirect fashion.

If a 60 leadership unit is at, say, 35 leadership, I'm pretty sure it could be terror routed.

Enemies in a 5m radius around the terror causing units will instantly route if they drop below 13 Leadership. This is most likely to trigger when the terrifying unit charges into an enemy from behind, compounding negative leadership modifiers until they drop below 13 and rout. From the Wiki[totalwarwarhammer.fandom.com]

So it also protect from the leadership penality caused by a unit with Terror during a charge. So yeah it's also useful. I guess.

Okay I get what your saying, and maybe I'm missing something.
But why would I be worried about fear if my unit is above 50% leadership? Practically all units with frenzy have good leadership. It just seems to be pointless on anything besides maybe Khorne hounds (which nobody uses) for they're 38 leadership.

If you need to be 12 leadership or lower to Terror route.
20 leadership - 8 Fear

That means the only time Frenzy will prevent a Terror route is if the unit's leadership is currently 13-20 leadership

Which should mean only units with a base leadership of 26-40 will even have a chance of Frenzy preventing a Terror route because of the 50% requirement for Frenzy.

[DarkFenix]

Looking a bit more into how terror works in detail, yeah frenzy isn't going to protect from it, by the time anything is dropped low enough on leadership to be affected, frenzy won't be in effect anyway.

What it will do is stave off fear. Being immune to that -8 penalty will help keep any unit above 50% leadership for that much longer, maintaining the frenzy bonus for longer.

That's a big deal on less elite units. If a unit has 60 leadership, it's the difference between needing to drop that leadership by 23 and 31.