Please buff the Lore of Death in campaign

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

The concept of the Lore of Death is cool, but at its current Winds of Magic prices, it's just not worth it in campaign. In multiplayer, the ability to basically delete any unit at will is amazing, but its frankly garbage in campaign when it costs 22 winds. The WoM costs for Lore of Death spells should be lowered across the board in campaign, and Fate of Bjuna in particular ought to be cut in half at least.

[Garatgh Deloi]

With a cost of 22 winds of magic you can easily use it 4 times in a battle, 5 with a few magic reserve buffs. Admittedly its a bit nerfed since game 2 and might need a adjustment. But i'd argue that its not that overpriced.

[KTVindicare]

So don't use Fate of Bjuna? Lore of Death has other spells. It doesn't need any buffs.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

So don't use Fate of Bjuna? Lore of Death has other spells. It doesn't need any buffs.

It's other spells are overpriced and underpowered as well.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

With a cost of 22 winds of magic you can easily use it 4 times in a battle, 5 with a few magic reserve buffs. Admittedly its a bit nerfed since game 2 and might need a adjustment. But i'd argue that its not that overpriced.

People attack the Lore of Ice for being overpriced in terms of WoM, but you can use an overcast Heart of Winter as many times as you can use Fate of Bjuna, and Heart of Winter damages multiple units at once.

Many lores have high WoM cost nukes, but only Fate of Bjuna has the distinction of only working on a single target while costing more than Comet of Casandora.

[KTVindicare]

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

So don't use Fate of Bjuna? Lore of Death has other spells. It doesn't need any buffs.

Compared to what? What other lore has a cheap single target DPS spell? What other lore has a debuff spell that does everything Soulblight does and for cheaper? Purple Sun of Xereus is basically the exact same spell Banishment is. All Vortex spells got cost increases in case you forgot, this one included.

Aspect of Dread Knight is incredibly strong in campaign now since it gives Magic Attacks and Fear and Terror which is amazing for fighting any demon faction since that gives ITP on top of damage bonuses to demons.

You're sleeping on how good Lore of Death is.

[strike478]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

With a cost of 22 winds of magic you can easily use it 4 times in a battle, 5 with a few magic reserve buffs. Admittedly its a bit nerfed since game 2 and might need a adjustment. But i'd argue that its not that overpriced.

Killinmg general can cause even 3 enemy armies to have morele problems. Definitely not weak thing. Especially when enemy hero is killer.

[KTVindicare]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Many lores have high WoM cost nukes, but only Fate of Bjuna has the distinction of only working on a single target while costing more than Comet of Casandora.

That's because Comet of Cassandora has a VERY long wind up time, and deals a significant amount of friendly fire. Fate of Bjuna is undodgeable and deals no friendly fire, once its on a target that's it. You can use magic to mitigate the damage but nothing else.

It's expensive but its reliability is why it's so expensive. If it was any cheaper it would be totally busted against opponents that know how to dodge magic, like say other players.

Lore of Death doesn't have to rely on Fate of Bjuna. If you want a spell that deals damage to multiple units just use Purple Sun of Xereus. Fate of Bjuna is for enemy targets you want to make sure take the full damage of the spell and are worth the expensive Winds price. It's also a good option if the situation doesn't call for a vortex spell like if the enemy is moving or there are a lot of your own soldiers in the blast radius.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

So don't use Fate of Bjuna? Lore of Death has other spells. It doesn't need any buffs.

Compared to what? What other lore has a cheap single target DPS spell? What other lore has a debuff spell that does everything Soulblight does and for cheaper? Purple Sun of Xerxes is basically the exact same spell Banishment is. All Vortex spells got cost increases in case you forgot, this one included.

Aspect of Dread Knight is incredibly strong in campaign now since it gives Magic Attacks and Fear and Terror which is amazing for fighting any demon faction since that gives ITP on top of damage bonuses to demons.

You're sleeping on how good Lore of Death is.

Fate of Bjuna is not cheap and Spirit Leech is only effective against single entities. Soulblight isn't very good as "area of effect buffs/debuffs" go. It only lasts 18 seconds unless overcasted, when it costs 36 seconds, but then costs 14 winds and has a miscast chance. I can think of several that are better, such as Curse of the Midnight Wind, Transmutation of Lead, Plague of Rust, Usekph's Incantation of Desiccation, The Curse of Anraheir, The Withering or the Curse of Years, not to mention unit buffs which can achieve a similar effect, like Okkam's Mindrazor, Vanhel's Danse Macabre, Pha's Protection, Birona's Timewarp, Wyssan's Wildform, or Glittering Robe. The fact that Soulblight gets praised when its really a dime a dozen ability and generally on the lower end of the pack in terms of strength really goes to show just how bad the Lore of Death is that what would be a standard and often throw-away ability in other lores is supposed to be the highlight of the Lore of Death.

Aspect of the Dread Knight is only good against enemies with physical damage reduction, which aren't that common. Daemons are fairly common in the Realms of Chaos campaign, but are pretty rare in Immortal Empires, which is what most people play. It's basically a worse version of the Flaming Sword of Rhuin from the Lore of Fire, and the Lore of Fire has a much better roster of spells than Death. For one, there's actually a reason to cast the Flaming Sword of Rhuin beyond "I'm fighting ghosts, daemons or savage orcs" since it actually gives a damage buff and flaming attacks (which, when combined with Kindleflame, is yet another damage buff.)

Now, I don't mind how the Lore of Death is structured beyond the spells massively over-costed in campaign. Having a wizard who can basically delete enemy units while also causing mass routes can be cool and thematic... if these abilities have an appropriate WoM cost which they do not.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Many lores have high WoM cost nukes, but only Fate of Bjuna has the distinction of only working on a single target while costing more than Comet of Casandora.

That's because Comet of Cassandora has a VERY long wind up time, and deals a significant amount of friendly fire. Fate of Bjuna is undodgeable and deals no friendly fire, once its on a target that's it. You can use magic to mitigate the damage but nothing else.

It's expensive but its reliability is why it's so expensive. If it was any cheaper it would be totally busted against opponents that know how to dodge magic, like say other players.

Lore of Death doesn't have to rely on Fate of Bjuna. If you want a spell that deals damage to multiple units just use Purple Sun of Xereus. Fate of Bjuna is for enemy targets you want to make sure take the full damage of the spell and are worth the expensive Winds price. It's also a good option if the situation doesn't call for a vortex spell like if the enemy is moving or there are a lot of your own soldiers in the blast radius.

Hence why Fate of Bjuna is actually a really good spell... *in multiplayer.*

But it's garbage *in campaign.*

Which is the point of this thread. The WoM cost for Fate of Bjuna should be massively reduced *for campaign.* This is something that's already in the campaign, since putting full skill points into a spell will reduce its WoM cost. This just needs to be a lot more than it currently is.

[KTVindicare]

Originally posted by Naram-Sin:

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

Compared to what? What other lore has a cheap single target DPS spell? What other lore has a debuff spell that does everything Soulblight does and for cheaper? Purple Sun of Xerxes is basically the exact same spell Banishment is. All Vortex spells got cost increases in case you forgot, this one included.

Aspect of Dread Knight is incredibly strong in campaign now since it gives Magic Attacks and Fear and Terror which is amazing for fighting any demon faction since that gives ITP on top of damage bonuses to demons.

You're sleeping on how good Lore of Death is.

Fate of Bjuna is not cheap and Spirit Leech is only effective against single entities. Soulblight isn't very good as "area of effect buffs/debuffs" go. It only lasts 18 seconds unless overcasted, when it costs 36 seconds, but then costs 14 winds and has a miscast chance. I can think of several that are better, such as Curse of the Midnight Wind, Transmutation of Lead, Plague of Rust, Usekph's Incantation of Desiccation, The Curse of Anraheir, The Withering or the Curse of Years, not to mention unit buffs which can achieve a similar effect, like Okkam's Mindrazor, Vanhel's Danse Macabre, Pha's Protection, Birona's Timewarp, Wyssan's Wildform, or Glittering Robe. The fact that Soulblight gets praised when its really a dime a dozen ability and generally on the lower end of the pack in terms of strength really goes to show just how bad the Lore of Death is that what would be a standard and often throw-away ability in other lores is supposed to be the highlight of the Lore of Death.

Aspect of the Dread Knight is only good against enemies with physical damage reduction, which aren't that common. Daemons are fairly common in the Realms of Chaos campaign, but are pretty rare in Immortal Empires, which is what most people play. It's basically a worse version of the Flaming Sword of Rhuin from the Lore of Fire, and the Lore of Fire has a much better roster of spells than Death. For one, there's actually a reason to cast the Flaming Sword of Rhuin beyond "I'm fighting ghosts, daemons or savage orcs" since it actually gives a damage buff and flaming attacks (which, when combined with Kindleflame, is yet another damage buff.)

Now, I don't mind how the Lore of Death is structured beyond the spells massively over-costed in campaign. Having a wizard who can basically delete enemy units while also causing mass routes can be cool and thematic... if these abilities have an appropriate WoM cost which they do not.

You're just listing other spells while not listing what they do. None of the debuff spells you listed do the exact same thing Soulblight does. In fact NONE of the spells in the game do the exact same things that any of the spells in the Lore of Death do.

You also completely skipped over my first question. What other lore has a cheap single target DPS spell other than the Lore of Death? You can't answer that because there is no other lore that can compete with the Lore of Death in this area.

When you put the entirety of what the Lore of Death offers with what other Lores of Magic offer, it's a competitive Lore of Magic. It has its strengths it has its drawbacks, no lore of magic does everything.

If your only complaint is Fate of Bjuna, the answer to that is simply, who cares? It's one spell in the lore, it's a great spell if situational and that's fine.

The Lore of death is fine. It doesn't need buffs in campaign.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Originally posted by KTVindicare:

Originally posted by Naram-Sin:

Fate of Bjuna is not cheap and Spirit Leech is only effective against single entities. Soulblight isn't very good as "area of effect buffs/debuffs" go. It only lasts 18 seconds unless overcasted, when it costs 36 seconds, but then costs 14 winds and has a miscast chance. I can think of several that are better, such as Curse of the Midnight Wind, Transmutation of Lead, Plague of Rust, Usekph's Incantation of Desiccation, The Curse of Anraheir, The Withering or the Curse of Years, not to mention unit buffs which can achieve a similar effect, like Okkam's Mindrazor, Vanhel's Danse Macabre, Pha's Protection, Birona's Timewarp, Wyssan's Wildform, or Glittering Robe. The fact that Soulblight gets praised when its really a dime a dozen ability and generally on the lower end of the pack in terms of strength really goes to show just how bad the Lore of Death is that what would be a standard and often throw-away ability in other lores is supposed to be the highlight of the Lore of Death.

Aspect of the Dread Knight is only good against enemies with physical damage reduction, which aren't that common. Daemons are fairly common in the Realms of Chaos campaign, but are pretty rare in Immortal Empires, which is what most people play. It's basically a worse version of the Flaming Sword of Rhuin from the Lore of Fire, and the Lore of Fire has a much better roster of spells than Death. For one, there's actually a reason to cast the Flaming Sword of Rhuin beyond "I'm fighting ghosts, daemons or savage orcs" since it actually gives a damage buff and flaming attacks (which, when combined with Kindleflame, is yet another damage buff.)

Now, I don't mind how the Lore of Death is structured beyond the spells massively over-costed in campaign. Having a wizard who can basically delete enemy units while also causing mass routes can be cool and thematic... if these abilities have an appropriate WoM cost which they do not.

You're just listing other spells while not listing what they do. None of the debuff spells you listed do the exact same thing Soulblight does. In fact NONE of the spells in the game do the exact same things that any of the spells in the Lore of Death do.

You also completely skipped over my first question. What other lore has a cheap single target DPS spell other than the Lore of Death? You can't answer that because there is no other lore that can compete with the Lore of Death in this area.

When you put the entirety of what the Lore of Death offers with what other Lores of Magic offer, it's a competitive Lore of Magic. It has its strengths it has its drawbacks, no lore of magic does everything.

If your only complaint is Fate of Bjuna, the answer to that is simply, who cares? It's one spell in the lore, it's a great spell if situational and that's fine.

The Lore of death is fine. It doesn't need buffs in campaign.

Soulblight lowers armor and attack damage on affected units. All those other spells lower the defense and attack of enemy units, or raise your own units attack and defense (which is effectively the same thing). And they all manage to last longer than 18 seconds without being overcasted.

There are other spells that do single-target damage, such as Usirian's Incantation of Vengeance or Death Frost, not to mention that there are tons of lores with projectile spells that deal respectable damage to single targets, though admittedly they have a chance to miss.

Spirit Leech is not good enough to take the Lore of Death for it alone. The rest of the spells from the lore of death focus around lowering leadership, which only helps you if you're already winning. Then there's the Purple Sun of Xereus, which is a randomly moving vortex which, like all moving vortex spells, is just as likely to hurt your own men as it is to damage the enemy and, more often than not, goes off on its own adventure after dealing only a small amount of damage to the enemy. Vortex spells are really only good in siege battles where you can plop them down in a narrow space filled with tons of units and, once again, they're kind of a dime a dozen and the Purple Sun of Xereus hardly stands out among them. I have not noticed it being particularly better than flame storm, banishment or chain lightning.

[Cryten]

What gets me is that fireball does half to almost all the damage of a 20 wind dot for 5 (or 4)

[Wintersend]

tbh, I find it all exacerbated by how late Fate of Brumja comes online. Normally, lores have at least a good (into AI which is what most people play) spell in their first tier. Needing level 8 at the earliest to get the "main" spell, is a big delay if you don't have a way to recruit at higher level.

I'd just like for their spells to not, by and large, feel like what other schools can do but worse. Its one of the lores I can't really think of a situation when I'd actually want it opposed to a different lore, especially when it plays less nice with all of them thanks to high costs. Some lores are cheap enough you can have a few casters. Feels like death limits you to only using the one caster.

[identity]

Soulblight, Doom and Darkness and Aspect of the Dread Knight are great spells, and really useful for Counts, Coast and Kings to enhance their leadership penalties. It's practically designed for them and blends all too well with their strengths and weaknesses.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Originally posted by id:

Soulblight, Doom and Darkness and Aspect of the Dread Knight are great spells, and really useful for Counts, Coast and Kings to enhance their leadership penalties. It's practically designed for them and blends all too well with their strengths and weaknesses.

Tomb Kings get access to Lore of Light which has a spell that can make them unbreakable and gives a map-wide Aspect of the Dread Knight leadership buff as a lore passive.