2 Questions: Chaos Dwarf Blunderbuss & Early Elite Units

[Aas]

Since I am currently playing a Chaos Dwarf campaign again I encountered two problems I would like to hear your opinion about or some Tips so I might resolve them:


1. How to use Chaos Dwarf Blunderbuss units effectively?

I know how to play gunpowder units. Most races that specialize in them are among my favorite races.
I know about line of sight, about your checkerboard formation or chevrons, about elevation and how to use terrain.
I don't have a problem with handguns, flamethrower or shotgun like units in cathay or Vampire coast, where I use them sparingly or in case of the VC sometimes as a frontline substitute for they are expandable and alternatives are zombies anyway. I don't have a problem with Chaos dwarfs blunderbuss in sieges where I use them to clear the narrow streets one by one with enemies advancing in waves anyway.

But in the case of chaos dwarfs I feel the blunderbuss is the staple missile infantry unit where it all pivots about.
So I use around 4 or 5 units of them once I can.

Now imagine a mostly flat battlefield without high elevations to utilise:

If I use a checkerboard or chevron formation because of the short range the blunderbuss is close to the frontline and tends to be caugth in the melee. Should I hold them back a bit until the lines are static?
If I make a closed frontline they can't shoot properly or because of short range and the spread of the shotgun they threaten to shoot my valuable frontline units in the back (chaos dwarfs).
Do I need a different tactic?
If I try to flank with them they are threatened by everything not tied up in the frontline melee, they are also slow. Should I use way more bullcentaurs to tie the enemy up? I might be sleeping on them for I use maybe 1-3 bullcentaur units per army, if at all?

Is this just how Chaos dwarfs blunderbusses are? Are these their shortcommings to blance armor, shields and devastating damage or can I do more with a different tactic, frontline, army composiotion? Did I make a mistake?

Thoughts?


2. Is it possible to get Chaos Dwarfs Elite units early?

Early game I build a good foundation of raw materials and some factories in the chaos dwarfs homlands that are suitable for them. I focus on big provinces for factories and the according trade ressource buildings suitable for factories or outposts. Once my raw materials are stable and grow I spam factories.
But I am only able to upgrade the limits of chaos dwarf units by something like 2-4 units per round before endgame, depending on the unit. I also get access to high tier units buildings fairly late but I might be sleeping on instant building via laborers.

Most of the game I expand aggressivly with armies of hobgoblins and a handfull of chaos dwarf units and the odd artillery piece to get as much laborers a possible.

But then I end up in round 60 or 70 with an unstoppable empire but have mostly played hobgoblins, hobgoblin archers, a few blunderbuss units and some deathshrieker/magma cannons all game.
If I now start recruiting dreadquakes, infernal ironsworn, fireglaives or kadaai it's just for fun for the campaign is pretty much over. I get this stuff to late.

Do I need to play tall? Do I need to approach the economy differently or is this just how chaos dwarfs are designed and that's it?

Thoughts?

[Zeek]

Regarding blunderbusses, having 5 to 6 is too many imo. I usually only take 2 or 3 max because they are a short ranged unit that requires direct Los to fire. They are a high risk high reward unit imo.

I have them as part of my front line, and some kind of melee units directly behind them. Let them get a few volleys as the enemy approaches, then pull them back behind the melee units, advance melee units up to engage.

Then, I'll have them go to the flanks if I'm certain they're not going to be harassed by cav. Aim them perpendicular to the enemy front line and have them go to town.

Regarding early game elite units, I'm not sure. I've played a couple chorf campaigns and everytime it seemed like I wasn't able to get the eleite units until much later due to how their economy works. Which is a good thing, because of how strong they are.

[(Steelclaw)]

1.
Keep them relatively protected, or at least covering each other. (It's not that bad if one ends up in melee so long as another has a clear shot on whatever's attacking it - as you've said, they're relatively tough.) There are two things I'd generally do with them:
a) Keep them back behind the frontline, and shoot at large enemies such as cavalry or monsters who charge in. Blunderbusses will absolutely shred monsters.
b) Flank around the sides. You seem to be aware of this as a possibility, but struggling with rogue enemy units harassing them. You can mitigate this by giving them an escort when they flank - hold 1-2 melee squads back (even laborers will do) and have them play escort while your blunderbusses walk around into a position where they can shoot down the lines. Infantry make a better escort than large stuff - it tends to last longer, and it's easier to give it fire support without killing it.

(Also, having read what the above guy said, I noticed you said 4-5 blunderbusses. I probably wouldn't run that many either - replacing some of them with fireglaives gives you greater versatility.)

I can't answer 2 very well, I've played with chorfs much more than I've played as them, so I'm less familiar with the parts of the faction you don't encounter as a co-op ally. I've played both with hobgoblin enjoyers and people who like to build their chorfs tall.

[Aas]

Originally posted by Zeek:

Regarding blunderbusses, having 5 to 6 is too many imo. I usually only take 2 or 3 max because they are a short ranged unit that requires direct Los to fire. They are a high risk high reward unit imo.

I have them as part of my front line, and some kind of melee units directly behind them. Let them get a few volleys as the enemy approaches, then pull them back behind the melee units, advance melee units up to engage.

Then, I'll have them go to the flanks if I'm certain they're not going to be harassed by cav. Aim them perpendicular to the enemy front line and have them go to town.

Regarding early game elite units, I'm not sure. I've played a couple chorf campaigns and everytime it seemed like I wasn't able to get the eleite units until much later due to how their economy works. Which is a good thing, because of how strong they are.

Sounds good.

If I used fewer shotgun units in the vampire coast or cathay I had no problems. But coast has LOTS of handguns and more artillery. Cathay has strong crossbows and also a higher presense of artillery.

Wouldn't I want a substitute for the lost damage? Hobgoblin archers are weak and artillery is few and not high single target damage?
Bullcentaurs? Or just focus on magic like Vampire Counts?

But in general yeah... could be I use to much of them...

[Aas]

Originally posted by (Steelclaw):

1.
Keep them relatively protected, or at least covering each other. (It's not that bad if one ends up in melee so long as another has a clear shot on whatever's attacking it - as you've said, they're relatively tough.) There are two things I'd generally do with them:
a) Keep them back behind the frontline, and shoot at large enemies such as cavalry or monsters who charge in. Blunderbusses will absolutely shred monsters.
b) Flank around the sides. You seem to be aware of this as a possibility, but struggling with rogue enemy units harassing them. You can mitigate this by giving them an escort when they flank - hold 1-2 melee squads back (even laborers will do) and have them play escort while your blunderbusses walk around into a position where they can shoot down the lines. Infantry make a better escort than large stuff - it tends to last longer, and it's easier to give it fire support without killing it.

(Also, having read what the above guy said, I noticed you said 4-5 blunderbusses. I probably wouldn't run that many either - replacing some of them with fireglaives gives you greater versatility.)

I can't answer 2 very well, I've played with chorfs much more than I've played as them, so I'm less familiar with the parts of the faction you don't encounter as a co-op ally. I've played both with hobgoblin enjoyers and people who like to build their chorfs tall.

Good advice too.

True that it's not a big deal for Blunderbuss to end up in melee but they also stop shooting and it's a nuisance to extract them.

Seems like I should reduce the number of Blunderbuss I use. Will keep a look out for alternatives to damage... currently thinking about Bullcentaurs which I underuse. Or kadaai...?

I also ignored to escort my flankers so I will try to think about this more consciously. Maybe cavallery will help here too or just some inf like you said.

[path2power]

Originally posted by Zeek:

Regarding blunderbusses, having 5 to 6 is too many imo. I usually only take 2 or 3 max because they are a short ranged unit that requires direct Los to fire. They are a high risk high reward unit imo.

I have them as part of my front line, and some kind of melee units directly behind them. Let them get a few volleys as the enemy approaches, then pull them back behind the melee units, advance melee units up to engage.

Then, I'll have them go to the flanks if I'm certain they're not going to be harassed by cav. Aim them perpendicular to the enemy front line and have them go to town.

Regarding early game elite units, I'm not sure. I've played a couple chorf campaigns and everytime it seemed like I wasn't able to get the eleite units until much later due to how their economy works. Which is a good thing, because of how strong they are.

Originally posted by (Steelclaw):

1.
Keep them relatively protected, or at least covering each other. (It's not that bad if one ends up in melee so long as another has a clear shot on whatever's attacking it - as you've said, they're relatively tough.) There are two things I'd generally do with them:
a) Keep them back behind the frontline, and shoot at large enemies such as cavalry or monsters who charge in. Blunderbusses will absolutely shred monsters.
b) Flank around the sides. You seem to be aware of this as a possibility, but struggling with rogue enemy units harassing them. You can mitigate this by giving them an escort when they flank - hold 1-2 melee squads back (even laborers will do) and have them play escort while your blunderbusses walk around into a position where they can shoot down the lines. Infantry make a better escort than large stuff - it tends to last longer, and it's easier to give it fire support without killing it.

(Also, having read what the above guy said, I noticed you said 4-5 blunderbusses. I probably wouldn't run that many either - replacing some of them with fireglaives gives you greater versatility.)

I can't answer 2 very well, I've played with chorfs much more than I've played as them, so I'm less familiar with the parts of the faction you don't encounter as a co-op ally. I've played both with hobgoblin enjoyers and people who like to build their chorfs tall.

Like these guys said, 3 is enough blunderbusses, the rest should be archers or fireglaives
Not like these guys said, put them on the front line but make sure you have laborers in front of your blunderbuses, at like 75% of their max range.
the enemy will charge the laborers, but because the laborers are in looose formation, your blunderbusses will still fire.
Its a noob trap to think you need all elite units. Keep laborers in your army to reduce costs and line up the enemy to where they can be best shot at.

[Zeek]

Originally posted by Aas:

Wouldn't I want a substitute for the lost damage? Hobgoblin archers are weak and artillery is few and not high single target damage?

Hobgoblin archers aren't actually too bad, especially with Gorduz in the army because can buffs their damage a little bit. I use them well into the late game. The ability to arc shots over your friendly troops is a big utility they (all archers) provide. Also since they do fire damage, cast the ash spell to increase fire damage, have the archers focus fire on it, and watch as whatever they're shooting at evaporate. It's pretty funny.

I have a lot of success using Magma cannons, usually 2 of them, paired with 2 dread quake mortars. The mortars are end game though, so until then I'll substitute with a single Death shrieker rocket (use the anti-large shot, the other one is garbage) or just 1 more magma cannon.

Originally posted by Aas:

Bullcentaurs? Or just focus on magic like Vampire Counts?

I like the Bullcentaurs with great weapons, and have them as my flank (and blunderbuss) body guards. I treat them as my anti-cav unit.

The magic is great too, definately have a caster in your armies. Like i said above, the Ash spell increases fire damage, and pretty much everything in the roster does fire damage. Then the big hammer spell (forget the name) just deletes nearly everything it touches but has a long wind up time.

[Aas]

Originally posted by path2power:

Like these guys said, 3 is enough blunderbusses, the rest should be archers or fireglaives
Not like these guys said, put them on the front line but make sure you have laborers in front of your blunderbuses, at like 75% of their max range.
the enemy will charge the laborers, but because the laborers are in looose formation, your blunderbusses will still fire.
Its a noob trap to think you need all elite units. Keep laborers in your army to reduce costs and line up the enemy to where they can be best shot at.

Uuuuh that sounds interresting to just shoot into laborers. I like that Idea.

I have found my armies to be a bit monotonus because of the little variety in units. If I would use some laborers again that would mix it up a bit.

I will reduce the number of Blunderbuss and get some fodder again. Could help them both ways in securing flanking or as target practice.

My problem with getting elite units late is not that I need them to be effective but that I have essentially won the campaign before I had a chance to play with them.

But I might be going in with the wrong mindset. That I try to much to create an overpowering homogenous chaos dwarfs army instead of combining dwarfs and greenskin fodder.

Less is more in a sense...
If I break up my chaos dwarfs armies and sprinkle them over my mostly greenskin armies it reduces the amount of blunderbuss per army, gives the guns fodder and would make hobgoblin armies less boring.

And it would also mean I would use elite units sparingly which would go along side how chaos dwarfs economy seems to be designed. It would mean I wouldn't try to upgrade from hobgoblins to dwarfs to elite units in a "transitional" sense but sprinkle elite units alongside more Basic units. Interresting. Always something new to learn.

Sounds good.
Thanks for the advice guys.

[Aas]

Originally posted by Zeek:

Originally posted by Aas:

Wouldn't I want a substitute for the lost damage? Hobgoblin archers are weak and artillery is few and not high single target damage?

Hobgoblin archers aren't actually too bad, especially with Gorduz in the army because can buffs their damage a little bit. I use them well into the late game. The ability to arc shots over your friendly troops is a big utility they (all archers) provide. Also since they do fire damage, cast the ash spell to increase fire damage, have the archers focus fire on it, and watch as whatever they're shooting at evaporate. It's pretty funny.

I have a lot of success using Magma cannons, usually 2 of them, paired with 2 dread quake mortars. The mortars are end game though, so until then I'll substitute with a single Death shrieker rocket (use the anti-large shot, the other one is garbage) or just 1 more magma cannon.

Originally posted by Aas:

Bullcentaurs? Or just focus on magic like Vampire Counts?

I like the Bullcentaurs with great weapons, and have them as my flank (and blunderbuss) body guards. I treat them as my anti-cav unit.

The magic is great too, definately have a caster in your armies. Like i said above, the Ash spell increases fire damage, and pretty much everything in the roster does fire damage. Then the big hammer spell (forget the name) just deletes nearly everything it touches but has a long wind up time.

Yeah I think I will try to reduce the number of Blunderbuss and get some variety into my armies again.

I haven't tried using the ash spell alongside hobgoblin archers shots. Will try.

All of this sounds promissing. I think I have a better understanding of whats going on in my campaign.

I feel pretty much that my questions have been answered.
Thx guys.