Katarin Buff

[Boss]

I knew I disliked her on launch, but now it's getting to be a bit much, no? With Elspeth now in the game, and Balth's rework... why to GOD is Katarin still so god awful? As both a Caster and as a starting faction?

Recruit rank is a nothing burger, and the training, while nice, isn't going to do very much. Control +6 is definitely great on Very Hard, but I've never had any problems managing control in any campaign.

She has a 10% less cost on spells, 25% cooldown, and a whopping -1 on both Death Frost and Heart of Winter Upgraded. WTF is this? Seriously? Of every caster LL in the game, she's genuinely the worst. On a lore of magic that is already notoriously not top tier.

Elspeth is also a casting LL of a lore that's notoriously ♥♥♥♥ upon by certain people, and yet she can get upwards of 25% off all Death spells, spell mastery, power reserves regen, and -6 or -9 off her strongest spell. Not -1 off Heart of Winter upgraded.

If Katarin's Ice Court was exclusive to her, or her Ice Court mages could get 1 or 2 bonus traits, it'd be a bit better. As it is, she feels like ♥♥♥♥ and I see zero reason not to confederate her instead of starting off as her. Kostaltyn's 20% Ward Save is massive, and if you've got Mother Stanky, she's a no brain starter.

[AurumHawke]

With the FLC addition of her Sled, Katarin is the most overpowered Train in the game.
Infantry fail to exist with her around. Even, and especially, when they successfully get her stuck.

[Boss]

The sled isn't unique to her faction and does nothing for her as a mage. The Carmine Dragon is absolutely ridiculous itself, with one of... if not the best breath attack in the game given it deletes single units, arguably the most dangerous things in the game. Plus her own regeneration tacked on.

And Katarin on a sled is never going to be Mother Stanky on a sled.

[Sergalius]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Boss:

The sled isn't unique to her faction and does nothing for her as a mage. The Carmine Dragon is absolutely ridiculous itself, with one of... if not the best breath attack in the game given it deletes single units, arguably the most dangerous things in the game. Plus her own regeneration tacked on.

And Katarin on a sled is never going to be Mother Stanky on a sled.

i agree with you that Kislev needs some rework.
Their dls and whole faction was released in dire times.. + Kislev garrions s8cks ass.
But katarina is hard-carried by sled(he is broken) and her KSVK-armed Ice guar... ЛЕДЯНАЯ ГВАРДИЯ.
+ SVD askhina and lot of bear tanks.

[Boss]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Sergalius:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Boss:

The sled isn't unique to her faction and does nothing for her as a mage. The Carmine Dragon is absolutely ridiculous itself, with one of... if not the best breath attack in the game given it deletes single units, arguably the most dangerous things in the game. Plus her own regeneration tacked on.

And Katarin on a sled is never going to be Mother Stanky on a sled.

i agree with you that Kislev needs some rework.
Their dls and whole faction was released in dire times.. + Kislev garrions s8cks ass.
But katarina is hard-carried by sled(he is broken) and her KSVK-armed Ice guar... ЛЕДЯНАЯ ГВАРДИЯ.
+ SVD askhina and lot of bear tanks.

Those are lord effects. I understand, she has lord bonuses. Like every lord in the game in existence. Yes, you can, for her army, build Ice Guard. That's nice.

And that's all it is. The sled's been nerfed enough to not be a massive meme, and still isn't anywhere near Paunch or Mother Stanky. Of all the sled lords, she's pretty much in the bottom tier of them. Great, yes, but not the best.

That's my point. She's a bad mage, worst of the best sled lords, and has absolute F tier faction bonuses that only see any real use in Very Hard (mildly). I'm not asking for a faction rework (though doing new, interesting Ice Court stuff would be cool). I just want her to have Quest items and a skill tree that makes her mildly better than just a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Frost Maiden (Ice).

[Sergalius]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Boss:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Sergalius:

i agree with you that Kislev needs some rework.
Their dls and whole faction was released in dire times.. + Kislev garrions s8cks ass.
But katarina is hard-carried by sled(he is broken) and her KSVK-armed Ice guar... ЛЕДЯНАЯ ГВАРДИЯ.
+ SVD askhina and lot of bear tanks.

Those are lord effects. I understand, she has lord bonuses. Like every lord in the game in existence. Yes, you can, for her army, build Ice Guard. That's nice.

And that's all it is. The sled's been nerfed enough to not be a massive meme, and still isn't anywhere near Paunch or Mother Stanky. Of all the sled lords, she's pretty much in the bottom tier of them. Great, yes, but not the best.

That's my point. She's a bad mage, worst of the best sled lords, and has absolute F tier faction bonuses that only see any real use in Very Hard (mildly). I'm not asking for a faction rework (though doing new, interesting Ice Court stuff would be cool). I just want her to have Quest items and a skill tree that makes her mildly better than just a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Frost Maiden (Ice).

Totally agree
She has own doomstack and her magic is fine in most cases.+ sled is really soviet train of death.
But Babulka has op curses, her magic is broken. Druzhina is strong and babulka can create damn soviet tank division from spiders, while curse enemy to die in painfully death.
Katarina in dire needs of rework..
But CA dont have spare resources now. They need to finish 40k and make sure that Next TW dls would have the high standart of quality as TOD was( hope so)

[AurumHawke]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Boss:

And that's all it is. The sled's been nerfed enough to not be a massive meme, and still isn't anywhere near Paunch or Mother Stanky. Of all the sled lords, she's pretty much in the bottom tier of them. Great, yes, but not the best.

Grom just isn't fast enough; Ostankya's slower but at least has more abilities and artillery.
But it's not (just) the speed or mass, it's how Trains turn which results in ludicrous speed - no chariot whips around like trains do.

Here's that meme when it was first released: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3168393430
Post-nerf still does that to loose formations, just send her ahead and avoid (much slower) giant things as the rest of the army waits for shredded targets.
Now it takes an army's worth of spears moshing just to get Katarin's sled stuck - and they die in the hundreds every half-minute while doing so.

Confederation's still the best way to get her and buffing Patriarchs factionwide was always better.
But my point is Katarin, as a lord and unit, is overpowered.

[Boss]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von AurumHawke:

But my point is Katarin, as a lord and unit, is overpowered.

Still isn't. Ariel (hero), Sisters, Malus, Paunch, Mother Ostank, Balthazard-lemme-cataclysm-you, Elspeth, Tamurkhan, Skarbrand, Kholek, Morathi, Clan Skryre dude, Cathay lords.

I could continue. Katarin is not overpowered. She's underpowered. And specifically as a caster, something I keep reitterating as if it people think it's not relevant. She should be significantly better than a generic Ice Court Frost Maiden. Not barely better by 3 points on Overcast Heart of Winter, thanks.

[Reaver79]

Omg so she is not the bestest LL out there, buff her ! Next week we can whine about the next lord that some dweep dont find good enough and call for a buff for said lord.

[Celery]

OP just found out that all Lords aren't on equal footing. What revelations will be discovered next?

[ope84]

what about madzamundi hm

[DasaKamov]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Boss:

why to GOD is Katarin still so god awful? As both a Caster and as a starting faction?

She's not.

You said "you already disliked her at launch", so you're just confirming your own bias.

[jonoliveira12]

She is not awful at all. You can even do the "girls night out" army comp with her, and it is a very viable doomstack.

[Boss]

It's funny that ya'll keep pointedly ignoring the terrible faction bonuses and the fact all she gets is 10% off her spells, along with a 1 point off death frost and heart of winter upgraded.

Good work. I'll just continue to confederate her and just use Frost Maidens for casting in my other armies.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von DasaKamov:

She's not.

You said "you already disliked her at launch", so you're just confirming your own bias.

Not sure what "bias" you're talking about, but you seem to have jumped the gun in an attempt to have your "gotcha" moment. We had examples of fantastic casters prior to WH3. She was bad on release, and is still bad now. Her sled is fine and fun, but she's the worst of the sled heroes with nothing unique or interesting about her faction. With the redesign to Balthazar Gelt and Karl, along with Elspeth's release, it's just hammering the fact that getting 3 points off Heart of Winter (upgraded) isn't exactly fantastic. It's not fun playing a mage LORD as a barely better mage than the ones you can hire.

[DasaKamov]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Boss:

She was bad on release, and is still bad now.

Yuh huh. And can you cite your sources on this?

[Gnarl]

Doesn't she buff cats?