Demonic reforging!

[KoboldUtopian]

Ok this sounds like a great improvement for demons.

Daemonic Reforging

Over the lifetime of the game, Daemons have generally seen lower uptake than mortal units, as the campaign favours longevity over explosive action. Heavily armoured mortals can fight more battles back-to-back while the more aggressive Daemons tend to run out of steam due to battle casualties caused by daemonic instability and banishment.

To help bridge this gap, Daemon units with the Daemonic attribute can now be 'Reforged' after dying in battle, similar to "The Dead Rise Again" for the undead. Reforging chances and restored health depend on unit value, local corruption (favouring Daemonic or Undivided), Winds of Magic levels, and modifiers from skills, tech, and Daniel's devotion. This feature is available for all Daemonic factions and the Warriors of Chaos.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by CoerciveUtopian:

Ok this sounds like a great improvement for demons.

Daemonic Reforging

Over the lifetime of the game, Daemons have generally seen lower uptake than mortal units, as the campaign favours longevity over explosive action. Heavily armoured mortals can fight more battles back-to-back while the more aggressive Daemons tend to run out of steam due to battle casualties caused by daemonic instability and banishment.

To help bridge this gap, Daemon units with the Daemonic attribute can now be 'Reforged' after dying in battle, similar to "The Dead Rise Again" for the undead. Reforging chances and restored health depend on unit value, local corruption (favouring Daemonic or Undivided), Winds of Magic levels, and modifiers from skills, tech, and Daniel's devotion. This feature is available for all Daemonic factions and the Warriors of Chaos.

It sounds good but in practice I suspect mortal units will still be far more durable over the campaign. What needs to change is really the instability mechanic for demons and the undead.

Of course, CA is not interested in genuine fixes that will take (even slightly) more thinking and time, so we will get these cosmetic "fixes" that really don't do much.

[Imposter]

Sooo.. It's just a vampire rise-again mechanic... (Sigh), I'll take what I can get.

[Da_Higg]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Of course, CA is not interested in genuine fixes that will take (even slightly) more thinking and time, so we will get these cosmetic "fixes" that really don't do much.

So what would your suggestion be then?

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by Imposter:

Sooo.. It's just a vampire rise-again mechanic... (Sigh), I'll take what I can get.

Same.
If it makes them better, i might start using them more

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Da_Higg:

Originally posted by Lampros:

Of course, CA is not interested in genuine fixes that will take (even slightly) more thinking and time, so we will get these cosmetic "fixes" that really don't do much.

So what would your suggestion be then?

I just posted on the same post (which you conveniently didn't include). Fix the instability system. Lower the damage that instability inflicts.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Lampros:

I just posted on the same post (which you conveniently didn't include). Fix the instability system. Lower the damage that instability inflicts.

I'd argue that "Lower the damage that instability inflicts" is not a "genuine fixes that will take (even slightly) more thinking and time", rather its a quick fix that just makes the daemonic (and undead if we include them) units way better.

Heck if anything its a even lazier fix then the reforge mechanic that is admittedly just a copy of the live again mechanic from vampires.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Lampros:

I just posted on the same post (which you conveniently didn't include). Fix the instability system. Lower the damage that instability inflicts.

I'd argue that is not a "genuine fixes that will take (even slightly) more thinking and time", rather its a quick fix that just makes the daemonic units way better.

Heck if anything its a even lazier fix then the reforge mechanic that is admittedly just a copy of the live again mechanic from vampires.

You can tinker and calibrate with the percentages to achieve the best result.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Lampros:

You can tinker and calibrate with the percentages to achieve the best result.

I would assume that they already have and arrived at the result we see in game now.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Lampros:

You can tinker and calibrate with the percentages to achieve the best result.

I would assume that they already have and arrived at the result we see in game now.

ROFL. So whatever the devs decided is the most reasonable? They wouldn't have resorted to this fix if that were the case.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Lampros:

ROFL. So whatever the devs decided is the most reasonable? They wouldn't have resorted to this fix if that were the case.

Its lore accurate if nothing else. When their magic runs out (what leadership breaking is supposed to reflect in the lore) they disappear, they don't slowly fade, they just go poof.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Lampros:

ROFL. So whatever the devs decided is the most reasonable? They wouldn't have resorted to this fix if that were the case.

Its lore accurate if nothing else. When their magic runs out (what leadership breaking is supposed to reflect in the lore) they disappear, they don't slowly fade, they just go poof.

I know the lore well, and I've been an avid player of the tabletop since the 6th edition. And neither demons nor the undead are this fragile. Some things got lost or mangled in the translation from tabletop rules to PC rules, and the demon and undead instability is prominent among them.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

I'd argue that is not a "genuine fixes that will take (even slightly) more thinking and time", rather its a quick fix that just makes the daemonic units way better.

Heck if anything its a even lazier fix then the reforge mechanic that is admittedly just a copy of the live again mechanic from vampires.

You can tinker and calibrate with the percentages to achieve the best result.

Still not really a solution. Instability usually means death for daemonic units, unless the leadership debuffs are immediately countered. Daemons usually have much better leadership than Undead units(Nurglings and Furies have the same leadership as Graveguards), but also gets banished faster once broken(because unlike the undead, their form does not belong).
Reducing the amount of damage taken once below 0 leadership might prolong their lifespan a little, but will most likely still result in banishment regardless. And so we need something like Rise Again/Daemonic Reforging to not make it feel completely wasteful.

Reducing the amount of entities affected by daemonic instability would probably help a bit(currently it is 4 entities, each taking 49 damage per second, while undead is 1 entity taking 21 damage), or give them more leadership to make it more difficult to reach instability in the first place(it is already pretty good though).
But the Daemonic Reforging will help a lot and makes sense, in that it is more difficult to permanently getting rid of daemonic entities in regions with high corruption and a lot of winds of magic.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Its lore accurate if nothing else. When their magic runs out (what leadership breaking is supposed to reflect in the lore) they disappear, they don't slowly fade, they just go poof.

I know the lore well, and I've been an avid player of the tabletop since the 6th edition. And neither demons nor the undead are this fragile. Some things got lost or mangled in the translation from tabletop rules to PC rules, and the demon and undead instability is prominent among them.

Actually, they could take insane casualties when they lost a combat. For instance, if they lost a combat by 7, they would lose 7 extra wounds(which would usually mean 7 models). Just for those who havent played TT, you might have 20-30 models per unit, so losing an additional 7(on top of actual combat casualties) could quickly diminish a unit.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Still not really a solution. Instability usually means death for daemonic units, unless the leadership debuffs are immediately countered. Daemons usually have much better leadership than Undead units(Nurglings and Furies have the same leadership as Graveguards), but also gets banished faster once broken(because unlike the undead, their form does not belong).
Reducing the amount of damage taken once below 0 leadership might prolong their lifespan a little, but will most likely still result in banishment regardless. And so we need something like Rise Again/Daemonic Reforging to not make it feel completely wasteful.

Reducing the amount of entities affected by daemonic instability would probably help a bit(currently it is 4 entities, each taking 49 damage per second, while undead is 1 entity taking 21 damage), or give them more leadership to make it more difficult to reach instability in the first place(it is already pretty good though).
But the Daemonic Reforging will help a lot and makes sense, in that it is more difficult to permanently getting rid of daemonic entities in regions with high corruption and a lot of winds of magic.

You make some legitimate points, but have you seen the number of entities that are brought back on Youtube videos? It's so little that I don't think it matters. (But then I guess this solution, too, will be valid after experimenting and tinkering about how many units are ultimately brought back in the final version of these changes.)

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Still not really a solution. Instability usually means death for daemonic units, unless the leadership debuffs are immediately countered. Daemons usually have much better leadership than Undead units(Nurglings and Furies have the same leadership as Graveguards), but also gets banished faster once broken(because unlike the undead, their form does not belong).
Reducing the amount of damage taken once below 0 leadership might prolong their lifespan a little, but will most likely still result in banishment regardless. And so we need something like Rise Again/Daemonic Reforging to not make it feel completely wasteful.

Reducing the amount of entities affected by daemonic instability would probably help a bit(currently it is 4 entities, each taking 49 damage per second, while undead is 1 entity taking 21 damage), or give them more leadership to make it more difficult to reach instability in the first place(it is already pretty good though).
But the Daemonic Reforging will help a lot and makes sense, in that it is more difficult to permanently getting rid of daemonic entities in regions with high corruption and a lot of winds of magic.

You make some legitimate points, but have you seen the number of entities that are brought back on Youtube videos? It's so little that I don't think it matters. (But then I guess this solution, too, will be valid after experimenting and tinkering about how many units are ultimately brought back in the final version of these changes.)

Getting something back, rather than having the unit entirely wiped, is still better, since you save money and(as far as I know) veterancy.
So rather than being cautious with your elite Exalted Bloodletters, Daemonettes etc., and pull them away from combat once they are at around 40-50% health(to avoid instability issues), you can make the judgement call and keep fighting, because even if they die, as long as the WoM and Corruption is high, there is a decent chance to get the unit back after the battle.