20 minutes to kill a unbreakable single entity LL

[killtastic201]

It is not fun to spend 30+ minutes watching ungrim iron fist run around in little circles while I throw smoke bombs, and shoot arrows at him because he's a tiny little SE stacked with armor and ridiculous flat damage reductions. This is a painful, tedious experience. There is no hope ungrim can defeat my entire army, but I literally have to lean in, and tediously micro 15 tiny little units of goblins to continually dance a circle around him so that I can shoot him full of 15 trillion arrows so he will finally die. there is no chance ungrim can come out on top at this point, but the game is literally forcing me to sit around for half an hour and waste my time killing this one SE. Can we please rework the way that unbreakable SE's work once army losses have hit?? maybe a feature on them called "last stand" that drops their melee defence / armor to zero so that things can finish up in a reasonable time frame?

[Samuro]

Postat inițial de killtastic201:

It is not fun to spend 30+ minutes watching ungrim iron fist run around in little circles while I throw smoke bombs, and shoot arrows at him because he's a tiny little SE stacked with armor and ridiculous flat damage reductions. This is a painful, tedious experience. There is no hope ungrim can defeat my entire army, but I literally have to lean in, and tediously micro 15 tiny little units of goblins to continually dance a circle around him so that I can shoot him full of 15 trillion arrows so he will finally die. there is no chance ungrim can come out on top at this point, but the game is literally forcing me to sit around for half an hour and waste my time killing this one SE. Can we please rework the way that unbreakable SE's work once army losses have hit?? maybe a feature on them called "last stand" that drops their melee defence / armor to zero so that things can finish up in a reasonable time frame?

Lords are rather underpowered, so no they should not. You are just stupidly underpowered, if you are playing Skarsnik, because he doesn't have the units that easily solves that kinda problem.

Or at least not until you can make giants.

[minecraft with gadget]

Postat inițial de Samuro:

Postat inițial de killtastic201:

It is not fun to spend 30+ minutes watching ungrim iron fist run around in little circles while I throw smoke bombs, and shoot arrows at him because he's a tiny little SE stacked with armor and ridiculous flat damage reductions. This is a painful, tedious experience. There is no hope ungrim can defeat my entire army, but I literally have to lean in, and tediously micro 15 tiny little units of goblins to continually dance a circle around him so that I can shoot him full of 15 trillion arrows so he will finally die. there is no chance ungrim can come out on top at this point, but the game is literally forcing me to sit around for half an hour and waste my time killing this one SE. Can we please rework the way that unbreakable SE's work once army losses have hit?? maybe a feature on them called "last stand" that drops their melee defence / armor to zero so that things can finish up in a reasonable time frame?

Lords are rather underpowered, so no they should not.

Non-legendary lords I agree, but most LLs are extremely overpowered.

[Elliott]

Yeah I'm getting a little tired of all the single entity heroes and lords. Whatever the next Total War is I hope it has fewer small single entity units.

[Isaac]

Yeah, Umgrim is actually way more of a problem lord than Malus or vlad ever were. At least the factions that fight these 2 usually have good ranged and can shoot them to death, people simply sucked at playing and therefore cried.
Factions fighting Umgrim usually do not have good ranged, making him way more dangerous and problematic since it is really easy for him to stack resistances ontop of his top tier armor (which he shouldn't have at all, he is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ slayer)

[Fryskar]

Postat inițial de identity:

Postat inițial de killtastic201:

It is not fun to spend 30+ minutes watching ungrim iron fist run around in little circles while I throw smoke bombs, and shoot arrows at him because he's a tiny little SE stacked with armor and ridiculous flat damage reductions. This is a painful, tedious experience. There is no hope ungrim can defeat my entire army, but I literally have to lean in, and tediously micro 15 tiny little units of goblins to continually dance a circle around him so that I can shoot him full of 15 trillion arrows so he will finally die. there is no chance ungrim can come out on top at this point, but the game is literally forcing me to sit around for half an hour and waste my time killing this one SE. Can we please rework the way that unbreakable SE's work once army losses have hit?? maybe a feature on them called "last stand" that drops their melee defence / armor to zero so that things can finish up in a reasonable time frame?

Unbreakable wasn't the problem. The problem is you weren't using enough nasty skulkers, cause they're the only real good armor piercing unit *skarsnik has so early in the game... and even then, they still suck in prolonged melee, but they should have been able to chip him down. Also mix a few trolls in, they suck on their own, but with plenty of other targets around to take the damage, they'll get some good hits in.

Sounds like you don't fully understand the mechanics of damage types yet, this is part of it and something you won't easily forget now, so consider yourself learned. Those 15 trillion arrows do 1 ap damage, assuming they even hit, which they probably didn't if he was moving. Goblins are not the most accurate. Nasty Skulkers do 18, not including the 40% buff they get from attacking the flank, or whatever other bonuses they would get from skarsnik and other sources. Trolls do even more. No Skarsnik army is complete without a copious amount of Nasty Skulkers, especially when fighting against Dwarves.

Also kind of sounds like one of those situations where you learned on your own, or through observation, that ranged units are typically very powerful in this game and a lot of players will react to this by spamming archer-types to faceroll through battles. Unfortunately, for you, this is one of those situations where it doesn't work.

Thats as correct as its wrong.
Yes, gobbo archers only have a baseline of 10 regular and 1 ap, which will do little on Ungrims 120 armor and 4k hp. But 1 unit is 90 gobbos attempting to hit.
No matter how many skulkers/trolls you send, almost all of them will be watching Ungrim slaughter them as maybe ~5 can attack Ungrim.
All thats left is a mathgame. Does 1 units of gobbo more dmg? Probably not.
How about 5 with the +4 ap dmg? 5x90 models shooting for 1 regular (-90% on avg from armor) and 5 ap dmg? With no doubt.

The engagement limit beeing that low is one reason why sending regular inf on infantry sized lords is nowhere near as effective as shooting them, even less so if it would be well suited ranged units.
Its very likely massive more effective if you'd mob him with a lord and 2 bosses than burying him under the corpses of your skulkers.

Also as sidenote, gobbos don't have poor accuracy for t1 archers. Their accuracy is great, but only at a shorter range than other t1 archers.

[Ainess]

Postat inițial de identity:

I feel like you're totally missing the point. This was never about Ungrim vs Trolls. This is about Skulker damage vs Skulker damage + troll damage. Your only argument appears to be that it's not an efficient trade, especially in this highly specific situation where you are hanging on by a hair and you think you are in danger of losing the battle completely...

Does this strategy kill Ungrim? Yes. Does it do it faster than it would without trolls? You clearly don't know, and I at least know that it works because I did it and you don't want to believe me for some reason. You could just load up 2-3 units of skulkers and 1 of either a generic, river or stone troll to do some tests if you REALLY care about these numbers... but I do not see the point here because we just want Ungrim out of the fight. Also, keep in mind my trolls were highly experienced and buffed with lord skills, research and scrap, results may vary in skirmish.

You're seemingly arguing for the most ideal situation possible, and that you should never use a unit against another unit that counters it, but that has never been true in these games. It's perfectly acceptable to charge cavalry into the flank of a group of spearmen or polearms, and trolls serve a very similar purpose. They are a relatively cheap and hard hitting unit that Skarsnik can easily recruit before coming into contact with Ungrim, and they are great against dwarf infantry in most situations. The historical weaknesses of these units in these games seem to be offset for Greenskins with their scrap upgrades and further boosts, and they work even better when properly supported like they always should be. I would even be interested in seeing what group of trolls would come out on top if properly supported; Throggs or Greenskins. I haven't played Throgg in awhile, might be worth testing for posterity, because I'm incredibly impressed with greenskin troll performance.

At any rate, this discussion is getting silly and I don't really want to argue with people who aren't interested in testing it for themselves. I've just done it, there's not much else I can do. It works and that's all I care about.

And we can at least agree OP doesn't know what he's doing.

I think you are missing my points here. I never said that trolls mixed in with skulkers were terrible to begin with, just a questionable choice if you are unsure you will win before your army losses kick in, which sounds like the case in the situation OP described. I would then think it prudent to care which units will trade balance of power best against Ungrim, not which have the potential to kill him the fastest. Being in danger of losing the battle completely does not validate this approach, if anything, it does the opposite, since you are probably going to lose because of army losses, not because every single one of your units gets routed individually, and dealing damage to Ungrim does nothing to make him rout/lose faster until you actually kill him.

And you and the other guy were also talking about sending the trolls in on their own, not just to support the skulkers, which I plainly called a bad idea unless you have no concerns except for how long the battle will take.

And sure, we can definitely agree the OP is being clueless. And I would also say entitled and selfish, which are much worse qualities.

[Samuro]

Postat inițial de mario if he piss:

Postat inițial de Samuro:

Lords are rather underpowered, so no they should not.

Non-legendary lords I agree, but most LLs are extremely overpowered.

I can't say i ever had problems with any Lords, unless they have really overpowered (probably cheating) mechanics, like King Louen had and just trample over my melee units while fully surrounded, fly away, regenerate and do it again.
Usually just counter them with spells and somewhat upgraded melee units and they aren't even dangerous.

[identity]

Postat inițial de Sauske:

And you and the other guy were also talking about sending the trolls in on their own

I certainly did not.

[minecraft with gadget]

Postat inițial de Isaac:

Yeah, Umgrim is actually way more of a problem lord than Malus or vlad ever were. At least the factions that fight these 2 usually have good ranged and can shoot them to death, people simply sucked at playing and therefore cried.
Factions fighting Umgrim usually do not have good ranged, making him way more dangerous and problematic since it is really easy for him to stack resistances ontop of his top tier armor (which he shouldn't have at all, he is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ slayer)

Giants are surprisingly strong against lords. Two or three giants can kill any LL in the game unless they're at max level with the highest possible resistances.

[Monochromatic Spider]

Postat inițial de killtastic201:

I can get a little poot poot of melee attack from LOTS of sources.... but heres the catch... who on the ork roster could actually walk up and fight ungrim ironfist and not get ripped to shreds? because melee attack buffs only matter if ungrim doesn't kill you in seconds... (Ungrim can buff his WS to past 1k, with all of his abilities.)

well first off large units are completely out of the question, because ungrim is a anti-large specialist. second lets get all the silly goblin hero's and lords out of the way... because ungrim will ROFL stop them.. then lets get rid of basically any ork character not named grimgor ironhide because really, ungrim ironfist can solo any ork with ease... and so.. I remind you... IM NOT PLAYING GRIMGOR.... (also grimgor starts off incredibly far away from ungrim. realistically they would never even meet..) so who does that leave us with for seriously dueling ungrim with tons of magic buffs? hmmm... No one. that leaves us with no one on my entire roster suited for the job.

Ungrim doesn't have a whole lot of AOE or splash attack. His WS can get pretty high but it won't really matter against a gobbo swarm. All enormous WS does against a swarm is overkill individual entities. Killing 500+ gobbos with regular attacks takes a while. Fatigue will kick in. No matter what direction he's facing, he's getting hit a bunch from behind.

And sure, he may be able to beat spiders or giants 1v1 but that's not really how you fight him, is it? Three giants taking turns to whack Ungrim while he's buried in a swarm of gobbos should sort him out fairly easily.

Ungrim might be really good versus large but he's still just a fairly slow small single entity with a limited health pool. He can't ram his way through a crowd all that easily. Giants and spiders and whatnot are large entities with a large health pool that can engage and disengage through a blob without too much trouble.

[Isaac]

Postat inițial de Monochromatic Spider:

Postat inițial de killtastic201:

I can get a little poot poot of melee attack from LOTS of sources.... but heres the catch... who on the ork roster could actually walk up and fight ungrim ironfist and not get ripped to shreds? because melee attack buffs only matter if ungrim doesn't kill you in seconds... (Ungrim can buff his WS to past 1k, with all of his abilities.)

well first off large units are completely out of the question, because ungrim is a anti-large specialist. second lets get all the silly goblin hero's and lords out of the way... because ungrim will ROFL stop them.. then lets get rid of basically any ork character not named grimgor ironhide because really, ungrim ironfist can solo any ork with ease... and so.. I remind you... IM NOT PLAYING GRIMGOR.... (also grimgor starts off incredibly far away from ungrim. realistically they would never even meet..) so who does that leave us with for seriously dueling ungrim with tons of magic buffs? hmmm... No one. that leaves us with no one on my entire roster suited for the job.

Ungrim doesn't have a whole lot of AOE or splash attack. His WS can get pretty high but it won't really matter against a gobbo swarm. All enormous WS does against a swarm is overkill individual entities. Killing 500+ gobbos with regular attacks takes a while. Fatigue will kick in. No matter what direction he's facing, he's getting hit a bunch from behind.

And sure, he may be able to beat spiders or giants 1v1 but that's not really how you fight him, is it? Three giants taking turns to whack Ungrim while he's buried in a swarm of gobbos should sort him out fairly easily.

Ungrim might be really good versus large but he's still just a fairly slow small single entity with a limited health pool. He can't ram his way through a crowd all that easily. Giants and spiders and whatnot are large entities with a large health pool that can engage and disengage through a blob without too much trouble.

if CA didn't change it at some date, then umgrin os one of the lords with the highest amount of splash attack.

[Ainess]

Postat inițial de Isaac:

Postat inițial de Monochromatic Spider:

Ungrim doesn't have a whole lot of AOE or splash attack. His WS can get pretty high but it won't really matter against a gobbo swarm. All enormous WS does against a swarm is overkill individual entities. Killing 500+ gobbos with regular attacks takes a while. Fatigue will kick in. No matter what direction he's facing, he's getting hit a bunch from behind.

And sure, he may be able to beat spiders or giants 1v1 but that's not really how you fight him, is it? Three giants taking turns to whack Ungrim while he's buried in a swarm of gobbos should sort him out fairly easily.

Ungrim might be really good versus large but he's still just a fairly slow small single entity with a limited health pool. He can't ram his way through a crowd all that easily. Giants and spiders and whatnot are large entities with a large health pool that can engage and disengage through a blob without too much trouble.

if CA didn't change it at some date, then umgrin os one of the lords with the highest amount of splash attack.

They did change it just recently, didn't they? I think he was hitting like 5-6 entities at most, like many characters, but now he should be hitting up to 15 or so when his weapon strength is maxed out and buffed after the change? So he should now actually be a total beast at wiping out blobs.

Also, good point with the giants and arachnaroks from Spider, they have a better melee range than Ungrim, and if Ungrim is stuck in a blob, he might be completely unable to counterattack them while they can keep hitting him (tried as Ungrim, not pleasant to deal with).

[Monochromatic Spider]

Postat inițial de Isaac:

Postat inițial de Monochromatic Spider:

Ungrim doesn't have a whole lot of AOE or splash attack. His WS can get pretty high but it won't really matter against a gobbo swarm. All enormous WS does against a swarm is overkill individual entities. Killing 500+ gobbos with regular attacks takes a while. Fatigue will kick in. No matter what direction he's facing, he's getting hit a bunch from behind.

And sure, he may be able to beat spiders or giants 1v1 but that's not really how you fight him, is it? Three giants taking turns to whack Ungrim while he's buried in a swarm of gobbos should sort him out fairly easily.

Ungrim might be really good versus large but he's still just a fairly slow small single entity with a limited health pool. He can't ram his way through a crowd all that easily. Giants and spiders and whatnot are large entities with a large health pool that can engage and disengage through a blob without too much trouble.

if CA didn't change it at some date, then umgrin os one of the lords with the highest amount of splash attack.

In patch 6.0.2, Ungrim has a splash attack max of 4, no collision attack, doesn't do impact damage, and has no contact effect or mortis engine effect.

Essentially, he hits a few targets pretty hard but he has no real way of hitting a high number of targets.

[Ainess]

Postat inițial de Monochromatic Spider:

Postat inițial de Isaac:

if CA didn't change it at some date, then umgrin os one of the lords with the highest amount of splash attack.

In patch 6.0.2, Ungrim has a splash attack max of 4, no collision attack, doesn't do impact damage, and has no contact effect or mortis engine effect.

Essentially, he hits a few targets pretty hard but he has no real way of hitting a high number of targets.

Well, in update 6.0

Splash Attack Targets
To provide more consistency and shift the meta, splash attack values for all units have been recalibrated using a 100:1 ratio.

For every 100 weapon strength a unit has, they gain an additional splash attack target, rounded to the nearest whole number (but no less than 1).

For example, a unit with 500 weapon strength will have 5 splash attack targets, distributing damage evenly across them.

This change optimises splash attacks to ensure that units are operating at peak performance with a measure of gameplay consistency. For example, when you send a large monster into a line of infantry, the engagement will be a little more consistent.

I would assume this change affected all units, including characters, but not 100% sure.

But it is also possible Ungrim is bottlenecked by his AoE which might not practically allow him to hit more than a few enemies at a time.

[Monochromatic Spider]

Postat inițial de Sauske:

Postat inițial de Monochromatic Spider:

In patch 6.0.2, Ungrim has a splash attack max of 4, no collision attack, doesn't do impact damage, and has no contact effect or mortis engine effect.

Essentially, he hits a few targets pretty hard but he has no real way of hitting a high number of targets.

Well, in update 6.0

Splash Attack Targets
To provide more consistency and shift the meta, splash attack values for all units have been recalibrated using a 100:1 ratio.

For every 100 weapon strength a unit has, they gain an additional splash attack target, rounded to the nearest whole number (but no less than 1).

For example, a unit with 500 weapon strength will have 5 splash attack targets, distributing damage evenly across them.

This change optimises splash attacks to ensure that units are operating at peak performance with a measure of gameplay consistency. For example, when you send a large monster into a line of infantry, the engagement will be a little more consistent.

I would assume this change affected all units, including characters, but not 100% sure.

But it is also possible Ungrim is bottlenecked by his AoE which might not practically allow him to hit more than a few enemies at a time.

Yeah, they tried that initially but they reverted the change because it wasn't implemented in a sensible way. And the change was static, based on the base weapon strength pre-buff. So something that has 500 WS would get a splash attack of 5 and it would stay at 5, even if the unit would later increase its damage to 1000.

There was an additional issue in that some units had animations that needed a higher splash attack number to work right, and with the new splash attack cap they'd constantly swing for 0 damage.

As of hotfix 2 for patch 6, those changes are reverted and Ungrim has a splash attack max of 4. Which isn't a problem if you're playing Dwarfs, mind you, as irondrakes can handle chaff plenty fast anyway. But it does mean that if he's on his own then he's somewhat slow to dig his way out of a big pile of gobbos.