20 minutes to kill a unbreakable single entity LL

[killtastic201]

It is not fun to spend 30+ minutes watching ungrim iron fist run around in little circles while I throw smoke bombs, and shoot arrows at him because he's a tiny little SE stacked with armor and ridiculous flat damage reductions. This is a painful, tedious experience. There is no hope ungrim can defeat my entire army, but I literally have to lean in, and tediously micro 15 tiny little units of goblins to continually dance a circle around him so that I can shoot him full of 15 trillion arrows so he will finally die. there is no chance ungrim can come out on top at this point, but the game is literally forcing me to sit around for half an hour and waste my time killing this one SE. Can we please rework the way that unbreakable SE's work once army losses have hit?? maybe a feature on them called "last stand" that drops their melee defence / armor to zero so that things can finish up in a reasonable time frame?

[Ainess]

Publicado originalmente por identity:

I've played this game a lot, like a lot of people here I'm sure, and what I find funny is that the only time I'm really excited to play a game is when I see someone on the forum whining about something being hard or impossible. Even after having played all of the factions at some point in time, things change, so I get curious if what people say is actually true - it's been awhile, why not check it out? And then I do way better than I expected and have a good laugh when I come back to argue with some random noob on the forum.

Well to be fair, trolls would indeed be one of the worst possible options to use against Ungrim, and shooting him with crappy, inaccurate, low AP damage arrows may be borderline futile, but it still might be better than immediately send the nasty skulkers in if they are beaten up and tired already. I also wouldn't say 7 archer units is really spamming them.

But I totally agree, seeing people mald, piss and ♥♥♥♥ themselves complaining about difficulty and claiming that this or that faction is literally impossible to win with etc. also makes me feel better about myself/motivates me to play the game more lol.

[identity]

Publicado originalmente por Sauske:

Well to be fair, trolls would indeed be one of the worst possible options to use against Ungrim, and shooting him with crappy, inaccurate, low AP damage arrows may be borderline futile, but it still might be better than immediately send the nasty skulkers in if they are beaten up and tired already. I also wouldn't say 7 archer units is really spamming them.

This is what I said about trolls;

Also mix a few trolls in, they suck on their own, but with plenty of other targets around to take the damage, they'll get some good hits in.

They have high AP damage, 4 times as much as a skulker, higher melee attack, and they regenerate. Surrounding Ungrim with skulkers, and putting a troll unit in the mix is not bad advice. Their weakness is offset by the number of goblins nearby that will attract hits. Even if Ungrim specifically targets them, that puts every nasty skulker in the vicinity at his flank, which gives them a hefty bonus, so it's win/win.

No situation where your unit does 1 ap damage is worth wasting what they have on a unit that will mitigate damn near all of it. The guy just got done whining about how it took 30 minutes to win the fight using them, let's not act like it was ever a good idea to begin with. Those skulkers/my skulkers would do it in a couple minutes.

And 7 archers is not spam, but it is stacking. You are sacrificing a third of your army for that unit, and that's no small amount. I usually have somewhere between 2-4 archers in my army. People might argue a different strategy for multiplayer, but there is no situation where 7 units of archers is necessary to win in a campaign. It might make it easier for some people, but that's it.

[Ainess]

Publicado originalmente por identity:

Publicado originalmente por Sauske:

Well to be fair, trolls would indeed be one of the worst possible options to use against Ungrim, and shooting him with crappy, inaccurate, low AP damage arrows may be borderline futile, but it still might be better than immediately send the nasty skulkers in if they are beaten up and tired already. I also wouldn't say 7 archer units is really spamming them.

This is what I said about trolls;

Also mix a few trolls in, they suck on their own, but with plenty of other targets around to take the damage, they'll get some good hits in.

They have high AP damage, 4 times as much as a skulker, higher melee attack, and they regenerate. Surrounding Ungrim with skulkers, and putting a troll unit in the mix is not bad advice. Their weakness is offset by the number of goblins nearby that will attract hits. Even if Ungrim specifically targets them, that puts every nasty skulker in the vicinity at his flank, which gives them a hefty bonus, so it's win/win.

No situation where your unit does 1 ap damage is worth wasting what they have on a unit that will mitigate damn near all of it. The guy just got done whining about how it took 30 minutes to win the fight using them, let's not act like it was ever a good idea to begin with. Those skulkers/my skulkers did it in a couple minutes.

And 7 archers is not spam, but it is stacking. You are sacrificing a third of your army for that unit, and that's no small amount. I usually have somewhere between 2-4 archers in my army. People might argue a different strategy for multiplayer, but there is no situation where 7 units of archers is necessary to win in a campaign. It might make it easier for some people, but that's it.

Idk, it is just about the most effective thing to go up against as Ungrim. He will probably 1-shot any troll any time he targets one, so even if the troll managed to get one or two hits in, you will almost certainly be losing a lot more than you will be gaining there. Although if you have trolls and an unbreakable Ungrim you don't have a great way to deal with, it can be potentially necessary I guess.

Likewise, it may be necessary to waste time and ammo shooting him to loosen him up a bit. If you have an army of skulkers, sure, send them right in, but if there aren't that many, are beaten up and injured, they might just end up routing like the dude says.

[dolby]

Publicado originalmente por killtastic201:

Publicado originalmente por Amphibian Artillery:

The new greenskin LH, Snagla Grobspit, has a net ability

Oh great, so there's one hero, with one ability, somewhere, and I guess if I have that hero doing literally anything else, I'm just a moron, and I should have known about Scragla ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. also I don't even think this matters at all frankly, because snagla appears to only have 2 casts of his net, which is simply not enough to do anything meaningful.

Publicado originalmente por dolby:

Just debuff him and attack him with multiple units so you can stab him in the back... Nothing like attacking lords with low or zero MD and armor...

Not to mention when his tired he will lose even more MD.

Like people already said skill issue when you underestimate debuffs and buffs... You use debuffs and even ward won't save him works on every single lord in game they all melt like butter.

You clearly have no idea what your talking about, but let me make my point clear for everyone else:

so lets start with the wonderful debuffs that the little waaahg provides... hmmm let me check my notes to see ALL these great debuffs... oh and lets not forget lore of death.. hmmm what can I find..?

Oh! its soulblight, and itchy nuisance! those are the only spells your really referring too here. so lets take those one by one. oh- wait! Ungrim has the SLAYER trait. This trait states that: slayers cannot have their weapon strength debuffed. so both of these effects really don't do half of what they're meant to, but lets review this garbage for funsies.

So soul blight is giving ungrim -30 armor for 20 seconds. so instead of 120 armor he has
"ONLY" 90 armor.... yippee! that doesn't move the needle, because he still is layering on 90% flat damage negation ontop of 90 armor!

Oh but surely itchy nuisance- no. itchy nuisance gives ungrim -24 melee attack, to a character with 75+ melee attack. this doesn't move the needle at all frankly.

there is curse of the badmoon, which conjures a vortex that will kill my units, but sure it debuffs his melee defence for... which is actually kinda good... just one teensy weensy little problem.... it also a vortex and thus it kills my units.

So debuffs are basically worthless, because ungrim is a slayer, so lets talk about buffs! I can get a little poot poot of melee attack from LOTS of sources.... but heres the catch... who on the ork roster could actually walk up and fight ungrim ironfist and not get ripped to shreds? because melee attack buffs only matter if ungrim doesn't kill you in seconds... (Ungrim can buff his WS to past 1k, with all of his abilities.)

well first off large units are completely out of the question, because ungrim is a anti-large specialist. second lets get all the silly goblin hero's and lords out of the way... because ungrim will ROFL stop them.. then lets get rid of basically any ork character not named grimgor ironhide because really, ungrim ironfist can solo any ork with ease... and so.. I remind you... IM NOT PLAYING GRIMGOR.... (also grimgor starts off incredibly far away from ungrim. realistically they would never even meet..) so who does that leave us with for seriously dueling ungrim with tons of magic buffs? hmmm... No one. that leaves us with no one on my entire roster suited for the job.

Maybe I can drown him in bodies? PFFT! ungrim is literally going to stand there and kill my entire army if I try that. even if I constantly debuffed his melee attack with nuisance, and his armor with soulblight, he's still going to chop through literally everything, and eventually Im going to run out of crumby magic, and bodies.

So thats pretty much it. there are a few mediocre debuffs from non magic goblin lords that I didn't mention, but lets be honest, if your not convinced debuffs don't work by now, your beyond hope. A goblin lord is more of a liability than anything because it will not be beating ungrim in melee regardless of buffs and debuffs...

The best, most optimal way to kill him is still to have smoke bomb goblins dance around him in a circle for 30 minutes while I pluck him with arrows for 1 damage at a time. its not just boring, pathetic, and miserable! It optimal! YAAAAAY!

I guess no one told you that buffs stack and debuffs stack do i really have to make a screen shot with ugrim with zero armor and MD and 30 or so is more or less same as zero btw... His weapon strength doesn't matter if he can't hit anything.
cos i will do it if i have to lol...and we both know i can do it easy... you can stack -120 armor as greenskins just so you know and that is fact... before tired debuffs.

But yes with a stack army of 1 or 2 types units you can't do it. Goblin archers can only get you -30 with sunder that's true heh...


not to mention one unit of Mangler squigs will own him together with Azhag with no items or spell...anything... i'm sure generic orc boss would work just as well. So that's one tier 2 unit and one lord for 1 lord that so called kills armies. You cycle charge the squigs if they don't rage and hit him in the back with the lord. = one really really dead dwarf.

Don't get me even started on the less than half of goblin army: One giant, one goblin shaman, one goblin big boss,, goblin Warbos, Da warlords boyz, one Hag, river trolls and you can thrown in Snagla the new hero just cos why not... not that it matters at that point. And you can set your bad boy dwarfy to zero armor and zero MD and zero MA and just drink coffe while he dies... With all that Weapon strength doing absolutely nothing for him.


Yes armies of Goblin archers that he does kill lol and even those would kill him in melee if you debuff him with all the above...

IF you want a replay file to learn how to play let me know....

[identity]

Publicado originalmente por Sauske:

so even if the troll managed to get one or two hits in, you will almost certainly be losing a lot more than you will be gaining there. Although if you have trolls and an unbreakable Ungrim you don't have a great way to deal with, it can be potentially necessary I guess.

This is such a weird argument. Do you want to win the fight or not? It's Ungrim. He's inevitably going to kill things. Troll or Goblin, it literally does not matter. They do damage, they hit harder, that's all that matters.

Likewise, it may be necessary to waste time and ammo shooting him to loosen him up a bit. If you have an army of skulkers, sure, send them right in, but if there aren't that many, are beaten up and injured, they might just end up routing like the dude says.

The only "softening up" a goblin archer is going to do is poison damage, and that won't do ♥♥♥♥ against Ungrims armor. 30 minutes. Have we forgotten so soon?

Not sure why we're arguing about this. I just did it half a dozen times in this game. It works fine. Arguing about "efficiency" when you're losing doesn't make any sense. A few units of skulkers will do it fine. A few units of skulkers with a troll will do it fine, maybe faster. The goal and result is the same. Do what you want.

And actually, I take back what I said about trolls being bad by themselves. The morale scrap upgrade, along with a few other bonuses, like through the red skill tree, and these guys are DTF hard. I've made a point of using them in this game, and they are actually pretty disgusting. That may not hold in the end game against a line of breakers, but any infantry unit tier 3 or less is meat.

[Leelareso]

skill issue.

[Ainess]

Publicado originalmente por identity:

Publicado originalmente por Sauske:

so even if the troll managed to get one or two hits in, you will almost certainly be losing a lot more than you will be gaining there. Although if you have trolls and an unbreakable Ungrim you don't have a great way to deal with, it can be potentially necessary I guess.

This is such a weird argument. Do you want to win the fight or not? It's Ungrim. He's inevitably going to kill things. Troll or Goblin, it literally does not matter. They do damage, they hit harder, that's all that matters.

Likewise, it may be necessary to waste time and ammo shooting him to loosen him up a bit. If you have an army of skulkers, sure, send them right in, but if there aren't that many, are beaten up and injured, they might just end up routing like the dude says.

The only "softening up" a goblin archer is going to do is poison damage, and that won't do ♥♥♥♥ against Ungrims armor. 30 minutes. Have we forgotten so soon?

Not sure why we're arguing about this. I just did it half a dozen times in this game. It works fine. Arguing about "efficiency" when you're losing doesn't make any sense. A few units of skulkers will do it fine. A few units of skulkers with a troll will do it fine, maybe faster. The goal and result is the same. Do what you want.

And actually, I take back what I said about trolls being bad by themselves. The morale scrap upgrade, along with a few other bonuses, like through the red skill tree, and these guys are DTF hard. I've made a point of using them in this game, and they are actually pretty disgusting. That may not hold in the end game against a line of breakers, but any infantry unit tier 3 or less is meat.

Not really. If you are losing balance of power at a higher rate than you are stripping it from the enemy, or if you are just closer to losing than them, you could literally be losing the fight by getting some trolls killed. To Ungrim, army losses are irrelevant, but not to you in this situation. So you need to use your trolls wisely, which can mean not using them at all potentially.

And sure, idk how effective exactly goblin archers would be (I just know it would be very little), or how effective the skulkers are, but I imagine they trade pretty well against Ungrim, all things considered, however, no matter how buffed your trolls may be, Ungrim will ♥♥♥♥ down their throats, and it will cost you a ton of balance of power. Also, not as many trolls can be fighting Ungrim at the same time as how many goblins can, so you will be missing out on some flanking and rear attacks.

And I don't feel like we are arguing, just exchanging experience and perspectives.

[wojtek the artillery bear]

i have a exmaple but its from the point of veiw of the unbreakable lord i was in my skulltaker campaign and i had the chainsword item which gives him unbreakable and stuff i withdrew my army from a fight with kahtep's army and he killed every lord and hero and also killed every unit in like 40 minutes i sped it up but it still took like 20 IRL minutes so unbreakable is useful but its kinda boring lol

[identity]

Publicado originalmente por Sauske:

Publicado originalmente por identity:

This is such a weird argument. Do you want to win the fight or not? It's Ungrim. He's inevitably going to kill things. Troll or Goblin, it literally does not matter. They do damage, they hit harder, that's all that matters.


The only "softening up" a goblin archer is going to do is poison damage, and that won't do ♥♥♥♥ against Ungrims armor. 30 minutes. Have we forgotten so soon?

Not sure why we're arguing about this. I just did it half a dozen times in this game. It works fine. Arguing about "efficiency" when you're losing doesn't make any sense. A few units of skulkers will do it fine. A few units of skulkers with a troll will do it fine, maybe faster. The goal and result is the same. Do what you want.

And actually, I take back what I said about trolls being bad by themselves. The morale scrap upgrade, along with a few other bonuses, like through the red skill tree, and these guys are DTF hard. I've made a point of using them in this game, and they are actually pretty disgusting. That may not hold in the end game against a line of breakers, but any infantry unit tier 3 or less is meat.

Not really. If you are losing balance of power at a higher rate than you are stripping it from the enemy, or if you are just closer to losing than them, you could literally be losing the fight by getting some trolls killed. To Ungrim, army losses are irrelevant, but not to you in this situation. So you need to use your trolls wisely, which can mean not using them at all potentially.

And sure, idk how effective exactly goblin archers would be (I just know it would be very little), or how effective the skulkers are, but I imagine they trade pretty well against Ungrim, all things considered, however, no matter how buffed your trolls may be, Ungrim will ♥♥♥♥ down their throats, and it will cost you a ton of balance of power. Also, not as many trolls can be fighting Ungrim at the same time as how many goblins can, so you will be missing out on some flanking and rear attacks.

And I don't feel like we are arguing, just exchanging experience and perspectives.

In the situation where you clearly weren't prepared, your army is getting destroyed, and you're worried about army losses after the fact against a single, and deadly, unbreakable unit, then yes, Trolls might not be the best option, I will give you that. You can discuss the finer points of how well the strategy of mixing two complimentary units together, and their performance, after you win the battle and have the luxury of doing so. I would not be worried.

[dolby]

Publicado originalmente por Sauske:

Publicado originalmente por identity:

This is such a weird argument. Do you want to win the fight or not? It's Ungrim. He's inevitably going to kill things. Troll or Goblin, it literally does not matter. They do damage, they hit harder, that's all that matters.


The only "softening up" a goblin archer is going to do is poison damage, and that won't do ♥♥♥♥ against Ungrims armor. 30 minutes. Have we forgotten so soon?

Not sure why we're arguing about this. I just did it half a dozen times in this game. It works fine. Arguing about "efficiency" when you're losing doesn't make any sense. A few units of skulkers will do it fine. A few units of skulkers with a troll will do it fine, maybe faster. The goal and result is the same. Do what you want.

And actually, I take back what I said about trolls being bad by themselves. The morale scrap upgrade, along with a few other bonuses, like through the red skill tree, and these guys are DTF hard. I've made a point of using them in this game, and they are actually pretty disgusting. That may not hold in the end game against a line of breakers, but any infantry unit tier 3 or less is meat.

Not really. If you are losing balance of power at a higher rate than you are stripping it from the enemy, or if you are just closer to losing than them, you could literally be losing the fight by getting some trolls killed. To Ungrim, army losses are irrelevant, but not to you in this situation. So you need to use your trolls wisely, which can mean not using them at all potentially.

And sure, idk how effective exactly goblin archers would be (I just know it would be very little), or how effective the skulkers are, but I imagine they trade pretty well against Ungrim, all things considered, however, no matter how buffed your trolls may be, Ungrim will ♥♥♥♥ down their throats, and it will cost you a ton of balance of power. Also, not as many trolls can be fighting Ungrim at the same time as how many goblins can, so you will be missing out on some flanking and rear attacks.

And I don't feel like we are arguing, just exchanging experience and perspectives.

start a skirmish game and try it out lol

[dolby]

Publicado originalmente por identity:

Publicado originalmente por Sauske:

Not really. If you are losing balance of power at a higher rate than you are stripping it from the enemy, or if you are just closer to losing than them, you could literally be losing the fight by getting some trolls killed. To Ungrim, army losses are irrelevant, but not to you in this situation. So you need to use your trolls wisely, which can mean not using them at all potentially.

And sure, idk how effective exactly goblin archers would be (I just know it would be very little), or how effective the skulkers are, but I imagine they trade pretty well against Ungrim, all things considered, however, no matter how buffed your trolls may be, Ungrim will ♥♥♥♥ down their throats, and it will cost you a ton of balance of power. Also, not as many trolls can be fighting Ungrim at the same time as how many goblins can, so you will be missing out on some flanking and rear attacks.

And I don't feel like we are arguing, just exchanging experience and perspectives.

In the situation where you clearly weren't prepared, your army is getting destroyed, and you're worried about army losses after the fact against a single, and deadly, unbreakable unit, then yes, Trolls might not be the best option, I will give you that. You can discuss the finer points of how well the strategy of mixing two complimentary units together, and their performance, after you win the battle and have the luxury of doing so. I would not be worried.

trolls do great you just have to support them that's all, you know play the game... and not just watch youtube videos on how to play like some people do.

[Ainess]

Publicado originalmente por dolby:

Publicado originalmente por identity:

In the situation where you clearly weren't prepared, your army is getting destroyed, and you're worried about army losses after the fact against a single, and deadly, unbreakable unit, then yes, Trolls might not be the best option, I will give you that. You can discuss the finer points of how well the strategy of mixing two complimentary units together, and their performance, after you win the battle and have the luxury of doing so. I would not be worried.

trolls do great you just have to support them that's all, you know play the game... and not just watch youtube videos on how to play like some people do.

Trolls do great against Ungrim? I am sorry, but I don't need to go into a skirmish to try and know that's the furthest thing from the truth xP Very recently confederated Ungrim and made him a one-man doomstack. Monstrous infantry was dying like flies to him. Sure, they can dish out some damage, definitely faster than most infantry can, but the cost will probably be disproportionately high.

Also, fighting a skirmish Ungrim is likely not going to be very representative of even a lvl 15 Ungrim you would face in the campaign.

[identity]

I feel like you're totally missing the point. This was never about Ungrim vs Trolls. This is about Skulker damage vs Skulker damage + troll damage. Your only argument appears to be that it's not an efficient trade, especially in this highly specific situation where you are hanging on by a hair and you think you are in danger of losing the battle completely...

Does this strategy kill Ungrim? Yes. Does it do it faster than it would without trolls? You clearly don't know, and I at least know that it works because I did it and you don't want to believe me for some reason. You could just load up 2-3 units of skulkers and 1 of either a generic, river or stone troll to do some tests if you REALLY care about these numbers... but I do not see the point here because we just want Ungrim out of the fight. Also, keep in mind my trolls were highly experienced and buffed with lord skills, research and scrap, results may vary in skirmish.

You're seemingly arguing for the most ideal situation possible, and that you should never use a unit against another unit that counters it, but that has never been true in these games. It's perfectly acceptable to charge cavalry into the flank of a group of spearmen or polearms, and trolls serve a very similar purpose. They are a relatively cheap and hard hitting unit that Skarsnik can easily recruit before coming into contact with Ungrim, and they are great against dwarf infantry in most situations. The historical weaknesses of these units in these games seem to be offset for Greenskins with their scrap upgrades and further boosts, and they work even better when properly supported like they always should be. I would even be interested in seeing what group of trolls would come out on top if properly supported; Throggs or Greenskins. I haven't played Throgg in awhile, might be worth testing for posterity, because I'm incredibly impressed with greenskin troll performance.

At any rate, this discussion is getting silly and I don't really want to argue with people who aren't interested in testing it for themselves. I've just done it, there's not much else I can do. It works and that's all I care about.

And we can at least agree OP doesn't know what he's doing.

[dolby]

Publicado originalmente por Sauske:

Publicado originalmente por dolby:

trolls do great you just have to support them that's all, you know play the game... and not just watch youtube videos on how to play like some people do.

Trolls do great against Ungrim? I am sorry, but I don't need to go into a skirmish to try and know that's the furthest thing from the truth xP Very recently confederated Ungrim and made him a one-man doomstack. Monstrous infantry was dying like flies to him. Sure, they can dish out some damage, definitely faster than most infantry can, but the cost will probably be disproportionately high.

Also, fighting a skirmish Ungrim is likely not going to be very representative of even a lvl 15 Ungrim you would face in the campaign.

the base stats are there so those are what matters...and all that got nothing to do with what a fight would be in a VH game vs AI Ungrim. And like i said if you support them they do fine and it doesn't take 30 minits like op is claiming. IF op wants to run around and kite him by all means let him but in no shape or form a half decent player needs to do that just to kill him in singleplayer game vs AI Ungrim.

Publicado originalmente por identity:

. It's perfectly acceptable to charge cavalry into the flank of a group of spearmen or polearms, and trolls serve a very similar purpose.

exactly we all know that on paper you don't do that but in real games you can all the time and it works way way way more times then it should on paper.

[identity]

On a lighter note, this Skarsnik game was pretty fun until I got bored with battles not loading and crashing the game. Wonder if it has something to do with a specific unit, or maybe just a problem with this beta patch.

At any rate, it was still a fun game while it lasted. Took out Thorgrim very quickly, and had more than enough time to move back north with a solid army to challenge Ungrim, who was doing fairly well against Azhag. I let him hang for awhile until I could confederate Azhag, he was pretty easy to finish off at that point. Even took a detour to end Zhufbar before coming back to finish the job. Also Mors was brutalizing Gorbad, and Mors snowballing isn't an unusual occurrence in my games. I was surprised I was able to confederate him shortly after Azhag, which came with 8 settlements. Was well on my way to grabbing Grimgor because he wasn't doing too well against Tempest and Greasus. Also I've noticed lately that the large monster buff/fix/whatever has definitely helped them out, because Greasus is snowballing in my games where usually he would struggle against Grimgor or Kugath, but he just rolls over them now... literally.