Why do demons suck?

[CrazyEight]

I know that's a crude way of putting it but thats how I feel. Demons seem super weak... with the exception of Skarbrand, hallowed be thy name.

When playing as Demon's me and my friends find that a lot of enemies can pretty easily delete demon units. Many can't seem to survive in a fight and struggle against other units. They aren't the worst, far from it... but I expected more out of actual ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ demons. I mean, these are the malicious beings that an entire culture of barbarians worship and those same barbarians are way stronger.

Okay... okay... maybe we are playing as the Demons wrong?
Nope. Playing against Demons I have wrecked them too. They can't take a hit and don't damage my armies fast enough to outlast them.

Here is the thing...
When I think of Demons I think of a monster that is supposed to the the absolute apex of chaos. So much lore explains in detail the horror of these creatures. A single Bloodletter is supposed to be a difficult for for a group of soldiers to face.

But playing against Demons, I destroy them.
Playing as Demons, I struggle.

So I have to ask. Why are Demons so weak? Or more specifically if they aren't weak then why do they FEEL so weak? It feels like whatever threat the demons pose, another faction out there does it better.

...with the exception of Skarbrand. Skarbrand is amazing. Please don't punch my soul into the pain dimension.

[CrazyEight]

Originally posted by Ashardalon:

that makes sense
he is a giant target with no missile resist
just like most of his army is either too slow to catch you or has no armor

Good point. And that's pretty much how it happened. A horde of merciless murder demons got destroyed by uneducated peasants because they were chasing ponies.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by matlajs:

Originally posted by CrazyEight:

The Warriors of Chaos and Skarbrand are very powerful. Warriors of Chaos have consistently been a threat to me and when I play as them they I also steamroll the map.

Demons specifically seem to lack any bite. Its been too easy for me to defeat them and too easy for me to get defeated as them. They feel weak.

WoC are a bit too much right now and need a nerf. I don't think it is wise to give them a mid-high tier unit recruitment on T1 while giving them also some of the best economy in the game. But thats me sayign that today, when AI is a bit trashy in terms of unit recruitment quality/ quantity and even worse construction AI than in wh2.

WoC need no nerfs, Chaos factions should always be on the strong side, otherwise you end up with Ordertides.
The reason no Ordertide happened in the Lore, was precisely because Chaos was much stronger than Order, and attacked almost everywhere at once.

[Aleera]

Originally posted by CrazyEight:

Yes thank you for re-explaining what demons are supposed to be good at. I can't wait for the next hand full of people to do the same.

Very well.
Khorne. Rightclick the enemy. Don't try anything fancy with magic or cowardly archers. Full balls to the walls. Attack them. Use hounds to go after cowards with bows or artillery.

Nurgle. Debuff, debuff, debuffs, debuffs. Slap some more debuffs on the enemy. Laugh as Blackguard have 6 m/D or Bladesingers having literal 0 attack value vs your unit's. Anyone grouping up is a prime target for both Kugath and Soulgrinders. Utilize your plagues to buff your army accordingly. Having extra summons are handy.

Slaanesh. Steal their unit's before the fight, weaken them while strengthening yourself before the battle even starts. Isolate and utterly annihilate targets. Apply pressure where you want. You have the speed. You dictate where you fight. Use spells to make certain enemies cannot escape and are forced to fight on your terms.

Tzeentch, barriers are strong. even with their nerfs. Their doomknights excel in finding the right targets, get their shock damage, leave and regen the shields. Taking 0 damage basicly.
You're a ranged focussed faction, with a 100% ambush attack stance. Needless to say a Ambush heavily will favour you.

Notice that all of these things, except the Khorne one. The Ai is horrible at. So these AI factions will never be a threat. Just like Skaven are barely a threat as the AI, or Beastmen. I've not lost a battle vs the AI unless they outvalue me 4 to 1. No, I'm not boasting I'm good. I'm mediocre. But this game is not hard. The Ai is beyond stupid and will always act the same way.

[CrazyEight]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by matlajs:

WoC are a bit too much right now and need a nerf. I don't think it is wise to give them a mid-high tier unit recruitment on T1 while giving them also some of the best economy in the game. But thats me sayign that today, when AI is a bit trashy in terms of unit recruitment quality/ quantity and even worse construction AI than in wh2.

WoC need no nerfs, Chaos factions should always be on the strong side, otherwise you end up with Ordertides.
The reason no Ordertide happened in the Lore, was precisely because Chaos was much stronger than Order, and attacked almost everywhere at once.

I remember the Ordertide... (Vietnam flashback with the sound of Balthasar Gelt)

[Ashardalon]

woc probably needs some of the easy vassalization changes undone
being able to vassalize anyone by just killing their last town is pretty stupid
should just revive norscan and maybe some weak imperial rebels in last towns like it did in game1
beyond that up north having every second town being a dark fortress is just bad balance giving them a easily defensible strong economic heartland
fortresses up north should be very rare, you should have to go for mayor factions capitols for your fortresses
have it be an uphill battle for the reward

beyond that woc are perfectly fine
honestly a little weak in battle, but the ai wont be able to use it so you dont notice

[Salty Nobody]

I had a hard time getting my IE Daniel game off the ground due to the roster. Yeah there is alot of options but early game Malus can solo my army and he has an army of his own to for me to deal with as well. If I didn't have access to Chaos warriors and diplomacy buffs to other Chaos factions I probably would be screwed.

It's not that the demons are terrible, it's that they disintegrate and are destroyed instead of running away like a mortal unit AND they are expensive to recruit and slow due to the limited recruitment slots. On top of that the damage dealing demon units benefit greatly from spreading out and flanking but that can result in my units ending up isolated in losing engagements. I'm just finding the whole roster difficult to use and that is with all of them combined to choose from. Maybe once I get exalted units things will be better but for now I could accomplish more with goblins.

[CrazyEight]

Originally posted by Ashardalon:

woc probably needs some of the easy vassalization changes undone
being able to vassalize anyone by just killing their last town is pretty stupid
should just revive norscan and maybe some weak imperial rebels in last towns like it did in game1
beyond that up north having every second town being a dark fortress is just bad balance giving them a easily defensible strong economic heartland
fortresses up north should be very rare, you should have to go for mayor factions capitols for your fortresses
have it be an uphill battle for the reward

beyond that woc are perfectly fine
honestly a little weak in battle, but the ai wont be able to use it so you dont notice

I don't thing WoC are weak in battle. Frankly they seem way stronger than Demons do. I know that I have had a much harder time fighting against WoC than Demons but the infamous auto resolve always tries to make the Demons seem like a major threat.

[Captain T1]

Originally posted by CrazyEight:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

WoC need no nerfs, Chaos factions should always be on the strong side, otherwise you end up with Ordertides.
The reason no Ordertide happened in the Lore, was precisely because Chaos was much stronger than Order, and attacked almost everywhere at once.

I remember the Ordertide... (Vietnam flashback with the sound of Balthasar Gelt)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrRpdJqMC80

[CrazyEight]

Originally posted by Captain T1:

Originally posted by CrazyEight:

I remember the Ordertide... (Vietnam flashback with the sound of Balthasar Gelt)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrRpdJqMC80

I'm glad someone got that LOL

[Ashardalon]

Originally posted by CrazyEight:

I don't thing WoC are weak in battle. Frankly they seem way stronger than Demons do. I know that I have had a much harder time fighting against WoC than Demons but the infamous auto resolve always tries to make the Demons seem like a major threat.

yes compared to demons woc do seem strong
but i rather compare factions to not wimps, and if you compare to game1or2 factions woc are still a joke

[CrazyEight]

Originally posted by The Fifth Archon:

I had a hard time getting my IE Daniel game off the ground due to the roster. Yeah there is alot of options but early game Malus can solo my army and he has an army of his own to for me to deal with as well. If I didn't have access to Chaos warriors and diplomacy buffs to other Chaos factions I probably would be screwed.

I have definitely had this happen to me a few times. I will get into battle and Malus will shred my units and Demon Prince. Then when his health gets low he just pops off his ability and gets it all back.

[Aleera]

Originally posted by Ashardalon:

yes compared to demons woc do seem strong
but i rather compare factions to not wimps, and if you compare to game1or2 factions woc are still a joke

In what way are the new WoC a joke?

[Aleera]

Originally posted by CrazyEight:

I have definitely had this happen to me a few times. I will get into battle and Malus will shred my units and Demon Prince. Then when his health gets low he just pops off his ability and gets it all back.

That's how Malus is. Against Malus, you kill of his army, while making chase faster chaff unit's. Keep him away from your forces with a hound unit.
Army losses for the AI kicks in and either Malus pops his Daemonform, or just shatters. If he shatters, chase him with the dogs and make sure he dies. If he does get of his Daemonform. Just kite him around with a faster unit. That's all there is too it. He constantly takes damage when he's in daemonform. Eventually he will die on his own.

Either that, or you have a good goon squad to nuke his hp.

[identity]

Originally posted by Ashardalon:

but his magic is below average

Whoa now. I've killed entire armies with Infernal Gateway. That is easily one of the most lethal spells in the game.

But carry on, otherwise. I just wanted to comment on that.

[Ashardalon]

Originally posted by id:

Originally posted by Ashardalon:

but his magic is below average

Whoa now. I've killed entire armies with Infernal Gateway. That is easily one of the most lethal spells in the game.

But carry on, otherwise. I just wanted to comment on that.

its a pit of shades for 5 extra magic and 6 seconds extra cooldown
its one of his better spells
better then not just one but three chances to go into your own units and the spell that does less then nothing