How do Chorfs play?

[✪Asielra✪]

I am absolutely in love with dwarves, easily one of my most favourite factions. Big guns, sturdy, almost unbreakable troops, and even more guns - what's not to love? But from what I've read and seen about Chorfs, they play more like a mix of Skavens and Orcs, with meat shield infantry, weird beasts etc etc. These are some of the few factions I can't stand though. So here I am at the crossroads of whether I should buy this DLC or not.

[Fryskar]

Professor H. Farnsworth a écrit :

Inquisitor a écrit :

Its irrelevant how much you get at end game because its END GAME
First 50 turns is you spamming hobgoblin archers means they're superior for majority of game.
Its like saying that Tomb King Titan is better than Ushabti. May be it is after you get all the upgrades and caps and levels for lords that buffs them and items and a hero that can repair them and....
The archer goblin shoots at 100% effectiveness here and now. Here. And. Now. They only time when faction's power truly matter on difficulties higher than baby mod.

Hobgoblins do not have a 100% effectiveness at shooting. They'll miss and they'll use your own infantry line as target practice.
Gun lines do not have that problem which is why they tend to be more efficient for killing later on.
Nor is End-Game even remotely at turn 50 or close to it. That's more like late-early game and early-mid game. Late-game doesn't start until 150 when you're truely steam rolling.

And you can just.. Not use Hobgoblins. I had an elite army by turn 25 - 'cos I was beelining straight for it. It's not like you can't support yourself what with 750g from factories.

Only going to disagree with when you consider it which stage, but thats more sematics.
For me 50 is well into mid and 100 already late game or close ro endgame for some factions. 150 is endgame or mopping up phase with most.

[chris23162]

Fryskar a écrit :

chris23162 a écrit :

Their blunderbuss has less dps than zombie hand cannons while costing 225 and the hand cannons cost 150 so they cost 50% more for better stats but slightly less dps. Their infernal fireglaves cost more in upkeep than a unit of quarrellers and dwarf warriors combined

One of the shotties is shielded, armored, got chargedef vL, better accuracy and reload speed, but the other starts off with some better dps. Not to forget that you can buff them quiet a lot, even before the forge.
While they are certainly costy, they are well worth their cost.

Comparing fireglaives with thunderers would be fairer as they are closer related as AP ranged.
Fireglaives lack shields, but make up with more armor, more dmg, quicker reload. They are fairly resistant to getting attacked by cav too. The might be a bit too costy.

Like I say your paying the extra 75 gold for the better stats and you can compare them to thunderers but again you can get two thunderers for the same upkeep as a single fireglave. You can also buff the zombie hand cannons a lot but on a cost effective point they are just better, I'm not saying the blunderbuss is bad I'm saying that when it comes to ranged options they are extremely limited and then all I see is youtubers and others saying blunderbuss is OP and needs a nerf when it's out damaged by zombie hand cannons.

The reason why youtubers and most players don't know this is they got access to the zombie handguns at the same time with a range of 145 so they never bothered to use the hand cannon units and thus never saw how devastating they are. The armour is also pretty pointless in the gun on gun fight but the shield is useful although the zombies have 40 more models and 1,720 more hp. I have tested this and the zombies win 7 out of 10 shootouts, the extra hp just allows them to take a bit more fire.

But I will say it's very RNG based as you can get some engagements where the chaos dwarves hit with everything and the zombies lose half their hp while missing half their shots or it can go the other way where the zombies strip close to 4000 of the 5840 hp off the chaos dwarves in a single volly. In campaign I only have a few issues with their cost like hobgoblin archers are worse than orc archers but cost more, their upkeep should be around 110 if not 105 making them more expensive than normal goblin archers but cheaper than the orc archers. As they are stats wise in between the two but it's multiplayer where they cost far too much and this is reflected in their abysmal performance in multiplayer.

[SomeGuy1]

chris23162 a écrit :

SomeGuy1 a écrit :

so, like, if your argument is that in the early game the faction that is concepted and designed to use cheap units as the bulk of its armies to screen for its few elites... is best played by use cheap units as the bulk of its armies to screen for its handful of elites.... then... yes? Working as intended. Get 13 or so hobgoblins, a lord, a couple heroes, and 3 or 4 units with caps per army in the early game. That's how it's supposed to go.

But if you're arguing to not use those elites at all... well, maybe that works as Astorgath or whatever his name is. His early enemies are Kislev, Norsca, Greenskins, VC, Empire, and maybe WoC if you piss off Azazel. Archer spam works pretty well against all of those (as long as WoC is mostly marauders and not actual Chaos Warriors). But I don't see that working well as Daghortaz (sp?) with Thorgrim and Imrik right next to him. You want your few Bull Centaurs in your west army for the piles of Warriors, Quarrelers, Miners with Blasting Charges, and Grudge Throwers, and your few infantry units in the south for Imrik and his Archers, Spearmen, Cavalry (especially those Dragon Princes), and his dragon (once the dragon is dead it gets easier. You still want some guns on hand to kill Imrik himself when he comes off wounds, but you beat archers/spearment with Sneaky Gitz. Not hobgoblin archers, though, you lose that shootout). Hobgoblin armies should body Ghorst (combination of Archers and Sneaky Gitz, your only concern should be running out of ammo), you might want your K'daii or your artillery fighting Grimgor but hobgoblin armies are probably ok against him too.

EDIT: and then Zhatan starts near Cathay, and Jade Warriors/Crossbows/Lancers will slap hobgoblin-only armies around too.

I play legendary and in my Zhatan campaign it took me 24 turns to kill chaos and take the gates by turn 56 I own the entire west and middle of cathay. Cathay is a joke if you know how to play the game regardless of how they should slap you this is the ai and its dumber than a brick. I have already got the short victory and it was easy but the way the chaos dwarf economy works by the time you've got enough armaments to up your caps you have already won.

The armaments only work if you stay small or are struggling to expand as once your large and have unit cap increases then the hell forge becomes too expensive to use and upping the cap becomes stupidly expensive. The idea is great but the execution is extremely poor, just make the hell forge a max 6 upgrades per unit type and have it cost say 10 armaments per unit per upgrade so 6 upgrades on 10 units would cost you 600 and have zero upkeep. Or better yet have the hell forge be like throts lab where you select the units to add the buffs too and they cost 10 per buff maybe increasing to 30 for the better buffs as the upkeep system just does not work.

Also when you get big the chaos dwarf economy stops working as in you just start outposts for the money building and don't send slaves there as if you continue using the system as intended you get to a point where ever at 3% loss your too large to be able to replace your losses. So once you get to armour 10K armaments and 10K materials a turn you just stop using the mechanics. You need those armaments for buildings in your new provinces and the stupidly expensive unit caps and the materials for tower upgrades, the hell forge is abandoned as is the rest of it and the game then becomes just the same as any other faction with a few extra steps.

All in all a bad and boring system that was poorly thought out and implemented, also the fact any rebellion is a chaos rebellion is just stupid it should be an orc rebellion lead by black orcs to stick with the labour uprising idea and lore.

how many settlements did you have, and how many were factories? a each t2 factory building is 100 armaments per turn, and only uses 150 materials. a t2 mine makes 400 materials per turn. You can get plenty of armaments from like 1/3 of your minor settlements being factories.

[chris23162]

SomeGuy1 a écrit :

chris23162 a écrit :

I play legendary and in my Zhatan campaign it took me 24 turns to kill chaos and take the gates by turn 56 I own the entire west and middle of cathay. Cathay is a joke if you know how to play the game regardless of how they should slap you this is the ai and its dumber than a brick. I have already got the short victory and it was easy but the way the chaos dwarf economy works by the time you've got enough armaments to up your caps you have already won.

The armaments only work if you stay small or are struggling to expand as once your large and have unit cap increases then the hell forge becomes too expensive to use and upping the cap becomes stupidly expensive. The idea is great but the execution is extremely poor, just make the hell forge a max 6 upgrades per unit type and have it cost say 10 armaments per unit per upgrade so 6 upgrades on 10 units would cost you 600 and have zero upkeep. Or better yet have the hell forge be like throts lab where you select the units to add the buffs too and they cost 10 per buff maybe increasing to 30 for the better buffs as the upkeep system just does not work.

Also when you get big the chaos dwarf economy stops working as in you just start outposts for the money building and don't send slaves there as if you continue using the system as intended you get to a point where ever at 3% loss your too large to be able to replace your losses. So once you get to armour 10K armaments and 10K materials a turn you just stop using the mechanics. You need those armaments for buildings in your new provinces and the stupidly expensive unit caps and the materials for tower upgrades, the hell forge is abandoned as is the rest of it and the game then becomes just the same as any other faction with a few extra steps.

All in all a bad and boring system that was poorly thought out and implemented, also the fact any rebellion is a chaos rebellion is just stupid it should be an orc rebellion lead by black orcs to stick with the labour uprising idea and lore.

how many settlements did you have, and how many were factories? a each t2 factory building is 100 armaments per turn, and only uses 150 materials. a t2 mine makes 400 materials per turn. You can get plenty of armaments from like 1/3 of your minor settlements being factories.

When I quit that one I had over 300 settlements like I say once you hit 10K income of materials and armaments the system is not with bothering with, so you just make outposts and build the money building that just makes cash without needing materials. My point is that once you get big if you try to keep using the system as intended it will fall apart due to costing too many labourers each turn to maintain so you stop using it and instead just make outpost with the free cash building making all of the mechanics redundant.

[Fryskar]

chris23162 a écrit :

Fryskar a écrit :

One of the shotties is shielded, armored, got chargedef vL, better accuracy and reload speed, but the other starts off with some better dps. Not to forget that you can buff them quiet a lot, even before the forge.
While they are certainly costy, they are well worth their cost.

Comparing fireglaives with thunderers would be fairer as they are closer related as AP ranged.
Fireglaives lack shields, but make up with more armor, more dmg, quicker reload. They are fairly resistant to getting attacked by cav too. The might be a bit too costy.

Like I say your paying the extra 75 gold for the better stats and you can compare them to thunderers but again you can get two thunderers for the same upkeep as a single fireglave. You can also buff the zombie hand cannons a lot but on a cost effective point they are just better, I'm not saying the blunderbuss is bad I'm saying that when it comes to ranged options they are extremely limited and then all I see is youtubers and others saying blunderbuss is OP and needs a nerf when it's out damaged by zombie hand cannons.

The reason why youtubers and most players don't know this is they got access to the zombie handguns at the same time with a range of 145 so they never bothered to use the hand cannon units and thus never saw how devastating they are. The armour is also pretty pointless in the gun on gun fight but the shield is useful although the zombies have 40 more models and 1,720 more hp. I have tested this and the zombies win 7 out of 10 shootouts, the extra hp just allows them to take a bit more fire.

But I will say it's very RNG based as you can get some engagements where the chaos dwarves hit with everything and the zombies lose half their hp while missing half their shots or it can go the other way where the zombies strip close to 4000 of the 5840 hp off the chaos dwarves in a single volly. In campaign I only have a few issues with their cost like hobgoblin archers are worse than orc archers but cost more, their upkeep should be around 110 if not 105 making them more expensive than normal goblin archers but cheaper than the orc archers. As they are stats wise in between the two but it's multiplayer where they cost far too much and this is reflected in their abysmal performance in multiplayer.

I'm very sure you can buff blunderbusses a lot more than handcannons.
I can agree that their ranged play is a bit limited with merely 3 options + arty and sorcs.
I used handcannons often enough, but they simply can't match what buffed blunderbusses do.

In a direct shootout, 1v1, blunderbusses will in 10/10 cases slaughter handcannons.
E: handcannons already can't beat regular melee CD. They simply can't put a dent into them due to silver shields, meaning you'd need at least 2 units, so 1 can flank them.
Blunders barly lose models by the time handcannons are wiped.

[Fauxsteel]

literally? Skaven

[SomeGuy1]

chris23162 a écrit :

SomeGuy1 a écrit :

how many settlements did you have, and how many were factories? a each t2 factory building is 100 armaments per turn, and only uses 150 materials. a t2 mine makes 400 materials per turn. You can get plenty of armaments from like 1/3 of your minor settlements being factories.

When I quit that one I had over 300 settlements like I say once you hit 10K income of materials and armaments the system is not with bothering with, so you just make outposts and build the money building that just makes cash without needing materials. My point is that once you get big if you try to keep using the system as intended it will fall apart due to costing too many labourers each turn to maintain so you stop using it and instead just make outpost with the free cash building making all of the mechanics redundant.

... you complain that your stuff costs too many laborers, when you are spamming buildings that use laborers that you don't even need. You should have defaulted to factories, not outposts. Their gold income building is triple the income of the outpost one, and you had an excess of materials to power it. This problem is self-inflicted.

also, I'm confused. You said you were choked on armaments on turn 50, and then you said you had 10k income per turn and owned half the world?

Edit, like 4 hours later: wait, no, I misread what you were saying. I'm gonna make a new reply at the bottom. Though I still have questions of relevance.

[Thrakerzod]

ultimately it's all a matter of choice and army composition. Chaos Dwarfs can very much play like Dwarfs, with a front line that can hold out for several minutes and a lot of powerful artillery, their guns are more limited in variety but are still very powerful

they also have monsters as an add on to this, sure people can doomstack them but they're ultimately supplements to the roster, not the be-all and end-all

as for the slaves, they're mostly just there to fill in the gaps left due to the unit caps on the actual Chaos Dwarf units. honestly I'd advise against ever using slaves, skip ahead to Hobgoblins, use them to fill in holes where you just don't have the unit capacity to field Chaos Dwarfs for similar roles.

[Sn3z]

Chaos dwarfs use the dwarf missile units to hold the flanks the gunpowder weapons do alot of damage and they have charge defense you can pad out the flanks with missile gnoblars, in the centre use dwarf infantry with melee gnoblars or more laborers, your strategy is to control the flanks and push all support into the middle so it holds up. This army is passive/defensive, later Chaos dwarfs can strengthen that by getting artillery, or can play rush and use cavalry and centaurs. ALso work in some SEM's.

The caps force teh player into exclusively either a defensive style or rush based armys(optimize armaments), the gunpowder units, I think are essential well I don't see how army's can function without them(for the moment), the choice comes when either going heavy on artillery or centaur units(defensive/rush), flyers and k'daai are support tools for center of your army exclusively, the flyers probably better for rush army's.

[A.Pot]

They are actually kind of like a mix of Tomb Kings and regular Dwarfs. They start off with lots of cheap but weak troops you can just spam as much as you can afford but their heavy armored troops are very limited but as you progress in the campaign, they can get more access to those heavy units.

On the campaign side they also have more of a managements aspect where two of their special resources are absolutely vital in building up your towns with the other being able to strengthen their armies to some ungodly OP levels of power that are fitting for campaign only buffs.

[Teh_Diplomat]

Early game, imagine a Dwarf army that had to rely on chaff outside of their 5-6 starting units.

Quite early though (possible by turn 3 iirc) you can unlock Gorduz Backstabba with the recruitment of 8 Hobgoblin units.

Mid-game you've got an elite army (your starting Lord) plus another (mostly) Chorf Army, and then I had a 3rd, with Gorduz Backstabba full of sneaky gits running roughshod over Skaven, Ogre, and anyone else with low armour around Drazoath's starting area.


Late game, you're fully stocked with Flying Beasts, Arty, Firesworn, Blunderbusses, and Fireglaves. Then you add on top of that, the Armament buff (similar to Scap, but you pay per turn, but can stack multiple buffs, not limited to a single choice) means that you are a Dwarf meme army.


Here's the thing, if you had trash around your Dawi and quarrellers in the back, they would do quite well too; the chaff at least has speed, which is a nice addition for these stunties.


The biggest thing, is that their economy means you aren't pushing growth sacrificing your econ - if you've built correctly; you are getting buildings up quicker than normal, able to inst-build, insta-upgrade. Meanwhile the Dawi are waiting until turn 45 to have sufficient growth to feel like they can go on the offensive.

[Sn3z]

Chaos dwarfs playstyle is an inverted one to that of dwarfs which is fitting.

If we would draw a real contempary

At the battle of Cannae

Carthage=Chaos Dwarfs, seeks to ideally envelope armies, has natural tough units which excel on flanks, must get cavalry eventually if the faction wishes to compete from T3-T5

Rome=Dwarfs concentrates on smashing though the center of armies(has no real other option other than this one strategy)

[SomeGuy1]

chris23162 a écrit :

SomeGuy1 a écrit :

how many settlements did you have, and how many were factories? a each t2 factory building is 100 armaments per turn, and only uses 150 materials. a t2 mine makes 400 materials per turn. You can get plenty of armaments from like 1/3 of your minor settlements being factories.

When I quit that one I had over 300 settlements like I say once you hit 10K income of materials and armaments the system is not with bothering with, so you just make outposts and build the money building that just makes cash without needing materials. My point is that once you get big if you try to keep using the system as intended it will fall apart due to costing too many labourers each turn to maintain so you stop using it and instead just make outpost with the free cash building making all of the mechanics redundant.

Ok, I had to think it over and my earlier assumption that you were also making mines in those outposts is probably incorrect. And while your 10k income of materials was probably excessive and large portions of it could be converted into armaments still, that only really delays the problem you describe (of labor income eventually leveling off and not keeping up with the demand needed to build increasing amounts of factories to have your armaments keep up with the increasing costs) instead of solving it.
That being said, I'm not really sure how much of a problem it is in the first place. For one, you can also get Laborers from raiding. And from what you describe, you had a ludicrous number of armies. There's no way all of them were useful on combat duty, you could totally park some in several of some poor bastard's provinces and raid to farm him for labor.

But more importantly, I question whether you actually needed to increase your armament production when you got to that point. You said you had some ludicrous amount per turn, like ten thousand. How high did you get your unit caps to reach a point where that's no longer sufficient for increasing them? How many armies did you have? Like, by that point, you should have more military power than everyone else on the map combined. I have a hard time believing you actually would get any value by increasing your units caps when you have that--just kill everyone with the stuff you already have. There really does come a point when you have "enough" units, and I don't really consider the system breaking long after you've reached that point much of a concern. As you said, you got enough gold income to finance your steamroll without more factories.

And, again, the original question wasn't about breaking in the late game. It was having sufficient armaments to make a decent number of chorf units in the early game. Which your situation isn't really relevant to.

[Subtle Butt ( >ω<)っ ♡]

Theres plenty of playstyles with Chorfs which can be hobgoblin crapstacks, gunlines or a melee rush. For the early game, hobgoblin units are very cost effective and with Gorduz Backstabber they are actually even better than Chorf infantry.

Their gunline is great. Blunderbusses are ridiculous and have more damage output than ratling guns. They also do more friendly fire than ratlings. Fireglaives are the best handgun type unit in game. They have superior damage and are good in melee. Your artillery is some of the best in the game. Dreadquake mortars is better than Queen bess, you can get multiple and towed by a train. Magma cannons are also amazing and are basically better hellcannons at T2. Hellcannons are also still perfectly usable. Deathshriekers suck though, which is a shame.

If we're talking pure firepower, then maybe Empire or Skaven will have more weight of fire. However their gunlines are much more flimsy, a single unit of cav or two will destroy them in melee.

Chorf Melee is also amazing. Bull Centaurs are probably my favorite unit in the roster, especially with Astragoth. Kdaai Destroyer is great and their flying units like Bale Taurus and Lammasu are excellent, although I typically don't go out of my way to recruit them and just get it through my lords/heroes instead.

Due to their faction mechanics, you can really make your units even stronger because of the Hell-Forge. Their technology tree is great and the Tower of Zharr gives you extremely powerful army abilities.

[Sneep Snorp]

theyre pretty fun, i see the skaven comparison but its a lot more extreme with chaff units supported by elites, as the hobgoblins are pretty weak but theres so many of them and theyre supplmented by the limited chaos dwarves proper. They have the same power and line holding capabilities of the dwarves but have a far more offensive high damage playstyle theyre quite fun to play as