Bretonnia - Why the Hate?

[Fear2288]

Just curious.

I’ve seen many people over the years in WHTW forums hating on Bretonnia, and I’ve never really understood why.

Is it because they’re one of the more “historical” factions that don’t feature much in the way of monsters, magic, and tech?

Is it because they’re annoying with all the “Honor blah blah Glory blah blah the Lady” talk?

Is it because we have lowkey Warhammer SJWs who hate the whole concept of Bretonnia being a good faction, but their peasants get treated like dirt and used as disposable meat shields in battle?

Is it because ya’ll got STOMPED by their Grail Guardians who refused to die and you got angry because it ruined your campaign as the AI pumped out armies filled with them?

Is it because The Lady is secretly an Elven Goddess who conned an entire nation of people into worshipping her and doing her bidding?

Is it because 90% of their roster sucks until you can beef them up with lord skills and experience?

Like, I get some of these points, but I actually like playing as them once and while because I dig the whole “medieval knights versus fantastical foes” vibe that comes with using them.

[BIG E.]

Originalmente postado por jonoliveira12:

Originalmente postado por WALTUH:

Peasant is just another word for laborers/slaves

Actually true. Peasantry could not own property, conduct business, or even marry without their lord's permission. They were very much slaves, with the church often having to represent them before authorities, because they were not allowed to represent themselves.

That Bretonnian peasantry fare EVEN WORSE than actual historical peasants, just speaks to the true nature of the knife-ear mindset.

Well at least they are not sacrificed for a blood rite every 20 turns so they should be bloody happy about it.

[Ashley]

Originalmente postado por jonoliveira12:

Originalmente postado por WALTUH:

Peasant is just another word for laborers/slaves

Actually true. Peasantry could not own property, conduct business, or even marry without their lord's permission. They were very much slaves, with the church often having to represent them before authorities, because they were not allowed to represent themselves.

That Bretonnian peasantry fare EVEN WORSE than actual historical peasants, just speaks to the true nature of the knife-ear mindset.

This is true. But they'll deny this and say Bretonnian "nobles" are still noble even though they use the peasantry as meat shields for their selfless nobles. So noble!

[Many-Named]

Originalmente postado por Bowsette:

I find it ridiculous that The Fay Enchantress doesn't have greater arcane conduit despite being a pure caster lord with no melee skill line who is one of the most powerful mages in lore. Just another hint that, maybe, Bretonnia seriously needs another rework.

Not gonna happen, one rework is already enough for one minor faction and there are other factions that def need some love (DE, Lizards etc)

[jonoliveira12]

Originalmente postado por WALTUH:

Originalmente postado por Bowsette:

I find it ridiculous that The Fay Enchantress doesn't have greater arcane conduit despite being a pure caster lord with no melee skill line who is one of the most powerful mages in lore. Just another hint that, maybe, Bretonnia seriously needs another rework.

Yes need their mutants

Need purging, more like!

Maybe adding Moussillon, as an alternate Bretonnia faction, where the Duke is actually kept in power by vote of the masses (even though he is a vampire), and the peasantry gets armoured and gunpowder-toting professional soldiers, to guard the lands from the depredations of the Lady's simps; would be a good compromise.
Then we could play the GOOD Bretonnia.

[jonoliveira12]

Originalmente postado por BIG E.:

Originalmente postado por jonoliveira12:

Actually true. Peasantry could not own property, conduct business, or even marry without their lord's permission. They were very much slaves, with the church often having to represent them before authorities, because they were not allowed to represent themselves.

That Bretonnian peasantry fare EVEN WORSE than actual historical peasants, just speaks to the true nature of the knife-ear mindset.

Well at least they are not sacrificed for a blood rite every 20 turns so they should be bloody happy about it.

I would rather just get sacrificed, than be a peasant in Bretonnia.
They make Chaos warbands seem like the height of civilized behaviour, by comparrison, even with all the enslaving, pillaging and sexual violence.

[Sn33th3]

What's with all the seethe over how Bretonnia treats its peasants? Last I checked all they have to do is toe the fields and not get in the nobles way. The oh so evil and arrogant nobles don't just sit around all day, they go out on constant errantry wars and face horrors beyond human comprehension, you can't even become a knight of the realm without successfully proving yourself in combat against all manner of hellish abominations, if you're a noble who does nothing you're not a noble in Bretonnia, peasants don't have that pressure.
There's also the self-made issue due to generations of being divided of peasants in Bretonnia being downright dysgenic and low-iq, so the nobles prejudice isn't entirely unfounded, imagine putting your life on the line daily for a bunch of mouth breathers who burn people at the stake for ♥♥♥♥♥ and giggles, you probably wouldn't be all too happy about them or want to give them political power either, they're not like the farmers of the empire.

They're really not LE BAD, they're "good" in the context of warhammer factions overall morality, imagine expecting perfect flawless "celestial beauty and magnificence in perfect harmony" mary sue factions in what was supposed to be an edgy grimdark parody tabletop game making fun of other media, that's how pure cringe like cathay was born.

Anyways the big thing that makes them less fun is that the campaign mechanics are really outdated (and will stay such because CA can't milk them since most devs ran off to #jointhepack) and cavalry is severely gimped in total war warhammer. It's still a very fun faction to play though since it requires a much different mindset. I can honestly recommend skipping men at arms entirely and just spamming peasant archers earlygame, then later on use battle pilgrims as your frontline since they have very high morale and come from a useful building, blessed trebuchets also play a very powerful supporting role, the actual on-foot component of the army exists entirely to pin the enemy down and to support your knights, powerful heroes and magic, which do the actual damage. That playstyle is a lot different to setting up your spearmanii, handgunmanii and rocketlaunchermanii and then getting curbstomped because the empire is "meant to suck".

[Mky]

It's by far my favorite faction as i'm a huge fan of arthurian themed things.

Yet i must admit that if it wasn't about paladins and knights and grail and such then the faction would be absolutely terrible for me to play.

Its units are nothing insane like they eventually should be when it comes to grail guardian and late tiers ground units.
Lords and paladins having to fulfill vows is a good idea but quite badly designed as it offers you fake choices (most vows are tedious to complete so yo uend up fulfilling the same ones for everyone), it's mandatory to field important army, it doesn't offer that much bonus as you'd expect it from becoming grail knights.

It feels like the whole faction is locked behind tedious achievements to complete before being able to field nothing more than a decent army.

Also, late tiers knights are slightly better than mid tiers knights, not enough to be like "woah nice change ! it's cool !". Making the faction even more boring than it can already be for some players. Put a lich banner on some knights of the realm to give them magic attacks and you have grail knights already lol.. Not even exagerating that much

The only good thing about this faction is the theme really (which doesn't fit everyone). The farm mechanic is ok-ish but beside that there's like no real flavor to it.

[Malachite]

Lance formation gatekeeping on TT -_-

[SpiffyGonzales]

Originalmente postado por Sneethe:

peasants don't have that pressure. .

Actually they do. Peasants get drafted quite often.

Originalmente postado por Sneethe:

imagine putting your life on the line daily for a bunch of mouth breathers who burn people at the stake for ♥♥♥♥♥ and giggles

Yes, but the reason the peasants are like that at all is BECAUSE of how Bretonnia treats them. Its like saying "sure the dark elves are brutal to their slaves, but theyre a bunch of weak starved helpless people". Like yea, thats what the faction did to them, not the other way around.

Originalmente postado por Sneethe:

they're "good" in the context of warhammer factions overall morality, imagine expecting perfect flawless "celestial beauty and magnificence in perfect harmony" mary sue factions in what was supposed to be an edgy grimdark parody tabletop game making fun of other media, that's how pure cringe like cathay was born

Three things there. The first is that Cathay was pretty obviously born to milk some china dollars.

the second is that Warhammer Fantasy is not grimdark. Despite what the fans or even GW may believe. Dark fantasy perhaps. But Grimdark implies a sort of dystopian setting where life is a hellish nightmare. Thats not WH Fantasy, the worst you get here is the occasional witch hunter in the empire or some zealot in a few other places. The bad guys are pretty brutal, but thats because theyre the bad guys. Bretonnia is the SOLE exception to this. Life for peasants IS a dystopia. Life for the average imperial, kislevite, cathayan, human living under the vamp counts, Marianburg citizen, elf, dinosaur, DoW, so on and so forth is pretty decent. Bretonnia is the ONLY good guy faction where the majority of its population are living under a brutal authoritarian regime which violently and brutally oppresses not only opposition, but even just regular folks.

The third is that even if it WAS grimdark, which it isnt, youd think that if one faction was gonna be the good guys itd be the chivalric knights who literally fight evil for a living.

I agree with your third paragraph except for two things, Bretonnia infantry (aside from squires and pilgrims who admittedly actually stay around long enough now) do NOT do the job theyre supposed to. They dont pin the enemy down at all really.
The second is your opinion on the empire. bretonnia literally has its entire roster be trash with the excuse of it being the cav faction, while its cavalry are the 6th best in game. The Empire is honestly pretty well rounded. I honestly think that the reaosn so many people say theyre bad is because so many people play them so the problems with them are more obvious..... That being said I will agree that they need an update tho.

[Ghost | Severage]

"Back in the day" they cried and whined about bretonnian Cav being weak and literally suck, while their cav is extremely strong. I even remember a time where those people rushed with their cav units into the frontline of spearmen etc and said they are just garbage because the cav got deleted.

[Faptor]

Originalmente postado por Fear2288:

Just curious.

I’ve seen many people over the years in WHTW forums hating on Bretonnia, and I’ve never really understood why.

I really, and I mean really, hate the French.

Those cheese stinking bastards are the first people I B-Line towards and wipe off the map.

[Mky]

Originalmente postado por Many-Named:

Originalmente postado por Bowsette:

I find it ridiculous that The Fay Enchantress doesn't have greater arcane conduit despite being a pure caster lord with no melee skill line who is one of the most powerful mages in lore. Just another hint that, maybe, Bretonnia seriously needs another rework.

Not gonna happen, one rework is already enough for one minor faction and there are other factions that def need some love (DE, Lizards etc)

Disagree, it's a faction like any other ones, there is no "minor factions".

Compared to DE and lizardmen they are clearly in a worse state so they defo should get a rework first.

[Faptor]

Originalmente postado por Theo:

You know that bretonnia are not french. Also your comment is quite xenophobic. Such attitude in 2023 is like.. ugh.

Louen Leoncoeur is close enough to Pierre Arquette to proc my unbridled disgust and hate.
They should know that rats are attracted to the ever present stench of cheese and unwashed armpits...large, man sized rats..Yes-Yess

Edit: I should clarify that this was actually just a joke. I just don't appreciate there play style as much as other factions. They are still fun and I play them a lot more than the Dwarfs, who I do actually have a hatred for.

[Ashley]

Originalmente postado por Faptor:

Originalmente postado por Theo:

You know that bretonnia are not french. Also your comment is quite xenophobic. Such attitude in 2023 is like.. ugh.

Louen Leoncoeur is close enough to Pierre Arquette to proc my unbridled disgust and hate.
They should know that rats are attracted to the ever present stench of cheese and unwashed armpits...large, man sized rats..Yes-Yess

Edit: I should clarify that this was actually just a joke. I just don't appreciate there play style as much as other factions. They are still fun and I play them a lot more than the Dwarfs, who I do actually have a hatred for.

They call them BOUS Bretonnians of unusual size

[Hieronymous]

Nice. Calling the lords "Bretonnians of unusual size" going forward