infernal guard (fireglaives) are really bad

[piesel]

I have a feeling that they are bugged. For their price they are really bad in both range and melee combat, and their only purpose is to counter air units (since blunderbusses can't). Do I use them wrong or they are really that bad?

[Imposter]

WHOA WHAT? I used them against Cathay in a battle and it pierces 4 lines of infantry. So, while I was shooting at Jade Warriors, the bowmen behind were taking massive damage. There aint nothing wrong with them. Then it got really nasty when I shot Halberd Jade warriors.

[piesel]

Originally posted by Blasted:

WHOA WHAT? I used them against Cathay in a battle and it pierces 4 lines of infantry. So, while I was shooting at Jade Warriors, the bowmen behind were taking massive damage. There aint nothing wrong with them. Then it got really nasty when I shot Halberd Jade warriors.

so I decided to test them and here's what i got: https://youtu.be/VXEQF8HRGmo
reminder that elf gs unit costs like 1300, so 800 blunderbuss just blows it out of the water like nothing, while 1250 hybrid unit can't even finish it in melee.

[Zeek]

I've seen them melt armored units pretty darn quick. Seem ok to me but the blunderbuss is way better imo

[Attraguss]

I've been able to use the Fire Glaives (albeit in a garrison, with just two of them) to ruin entire armies while bottlenecking them with Orcs and Hobgoblins.

It has for the most part worked wonders against Ogres, however I have not gone against Cathay units yet. They certainly have quickly downed most Ogre units however, which I am quite fine with. Note this is in IE with all the research that buffs them having been grabbed. I have not used the forge to modify them any either.

[piesel]

Originally posted by Attraguss:

I've been able to use the Fire Glaives (albeit in a garrison, with just two of them) to ruin entire armies while bottlenecking them with Orcs and Hobgoblins.

It has for the most part worked wonders against Ogres, however I have not gone against Cathay units yet. They certainly have quickly downed most Ogre units however, which I am quite fine with. Note this is in IE with all the research that buffs them having been grabbed. I have not used the forge to modify them any either.

but in the video I linked above they can't beat elf gs. is it supposed to be like this? am I using them wrong? they seemed like streltsi on steroids, who can also kick ass in the melee, but turned out they are weaker then streltsi.

[Fear2288]

What’s their rate of fire compared with blunderbuss?

If the FGs aren’t putting out as many rounds as quickly as the BBs that could explain why the BBs killed more models faster.


EDIT: FGs have markedly less missile damage than BBs.

Makes sense though, BBs have significantly less range than FGs. BBs are like gunpowder versions of shotguns - they’re supposed to be devastating at short range while the FGs are like rifles.

Thus, how it SHOULD work out is that while BBs tear things apart with a few volleys at close range, once the enemy is on top of you their success depends on how they match up with the enemy in regards to melee and how much damage they really did before getting engaged.

With FGs then, that superior range should result in them being able to fire off more volleys than BBs at the target and do some damage, but then when they’ve been engaged, they should be able to make short work of any low/mid tier units and hold their own against high tier ones.

[Attraguss]

Originally posted by psl:

Originally posted by Attraguss:

I've been able to use the Fire Glaives (albeit in a garrison, with just two of them) to ruin entire armies while bottlenecking them with Orcs and Hobgoblins.

It has for the most part worked wonders against Ogres, however I have not gone against Cathay units yet. They certainly have quickly downed most Ogre units however, which I am quite fine with. Note this is in IE with all the research that buffs them having been grabbed. I have not used the forge to modify them any either.

but in the video I linked above they can't beat elf gs. is it supposed to be like this? am I using them wrong? they seemed like streltsi on steroids, who can also kick ass in the melee, but turned out they are weaker then streltsi.

My apologies, just got back on the game for the day and noticed it was the blunderbuss and *not* the Fire Glaives. However I have been using the Fire Glaives in my main army and they've worked about as well for me so far. However I employ mortars, so there isn't that much left by time they get to firing.

[Imposter]

Originally posted by psl:

Originally posted by Blasted:

WHOA WHAT? I used them against Cathay in a battle and it pierces 4 lines of infantry. So, while I was shooting at Jade Warriors, the bowmen behind were taking massive damage. There aint nothing wrong with them. Then it got really nasty when I shot Halberd Jade warriors.

so I decided to test them and here's what i got: https://youtu.be/VXEQF8HRGmo
reminder that elf gs unit costs like 1300, so 800 blunderbuss just blows it out of the water like nothing, while 1250 hybrid unit can't even finish it in melee.

Hey, put in the next video the same units, but put another unit behind the other infantry. Glaives pierce through infantry lines.

[piesel]

Originally posted by Fear2288:

What’s their rate of fire compared with blunderbuss?

If the FGs aren’t putting out as many rounds as quickly as the BBs that could explain why the BBs killed more models faster.


EDIT: FGs have markedly less missile damage than BBs.

Makes sense though, BBs have significantly less range than FGs. BBs are like gunpowder versions of shotguns - they’re supposed to be devastating at short range while the FGs are like rifles.

Thus, how it SHOULD work out is that while BBs tear things apart with a few volleys at close range, once the enemy is on top of you their success depends on how they match up with the enemy in regards to melee and how much damage they really did before getting engaged.

With FGs then, that superior range should result in them being able to fire off more volleys than BBs at the target and do some damage, but then when they’ve been engaged, they should be able to make short work of any low/mid tier units and hold their own against high tier ones.

well, yeah, I agree, that it should work the way you described. However, the fact that FGs still loose in melee to elf GSs after firing at them for the whole range just makes me wonder why anyone would get FGs, unless you have to deal with flying stuff (but in that case single target deathshrieker may suffice).
GFs just feel undertuned for highest tier missile infantry, they are all around worse then blunderbusses. Buffs from lords, tech tree and forge may negate it somewhat, but they really feel lower in value then blunderbusses.

[piesel]

Originally posted by Blasted:

Originally posted by psl:

so I decided to test them and here's what i got: https://youtu.be/VXEQF8HRGmo
reminder that elf gs unit costs like 1300, so 800 blunderbuss just blows it out of the water like nothing, while 1250 hybrid unit can't even finish it in melee.

Hey, put in the next video the same units, but put another unit behind the other infantry. Glaives pierce through infantry lines.

okay, will try.

[Scr(A)tch]

Originally posted by psl:

Originally posted by Blasted:

Hey, put in the next video the same units, but put another unit behind the other infantry. Glaives pierce through infantry lines.

okay, will try.

You could also try against cavalry or even single entities.
Blunderbuss weapons probably have some splash damage, which is highly efficient against tightly packed infantry but useless vs. single targets. Besides, cavalry quickly closes the short range of blunderbusses.
Incidentally, FGs have anti-large melee and large charge defense.

[piesel]

so after 2 more tests (which I didn't record) I found out, that FGs can defeat elemental bear (though it still comes into melee with too much health in my opinion), while blunderbusses did rout with bear having 1 hp (which I can argue might be random and they can defeat him). also, I wasn't able to properly setup fireglavies damage that comes from piercing lines -- may be this will be easier to test in campaign.
Overall, I still think FGs deserve a little buff. They deal ~2/3 of blunderbusses damage (if we only count numbers, not the splash), so may be make it like 3/4 of 4/5.
I'll try to do a better test for piercing and report if here.

[Imposter]

Originally posted by psl:

so after 2 more tests (which I didn't record) I found out, that FGs can defeat elemental bear (though it still comes into melee with too much health in my opinion), while blunderbusses did rout with bear having 1 hp (which I can argue might be random and they can defeat him). also, I wasn't able to properly setup fireglavies damage that comes from piercing lines -- may be this will be easier to test in campaign.
Overall, I still think FGs deserve a little buff. They deal ~2/3 of blunderbusses damage (if we only count numbers, not the splash), so may be make it like 3/4 of 4/5.
I'll try to do a better test for piercing and report if here.

Man.. I wish I could have recorded this one battle.. It was my military convoy attacking a Cathyan type faction. I had 2 glaives, 2 blunderbusses, 2 CDwarf warriors, and 2 Hobbos. They had Jade warriors(both types) and some archers, with their Grand cannon. I thought the Ai was going to kill me but they only killed a few Hobbos. Anyway, i stood my Glaives right in the tree line, just in range ofntheir front line, hitting shielded Jade warriors, thought nothing of it, but I didnt notice at first that it was hitting their archers behind the warriors too. It pierced right through their heavily armored line, I routed 7 of their infantry because they sat there and took it; Al.ost killing all of them, completely. I guess the enemy didn't attack because my glaives were appearing and disappearing due to being in the woods.

[Warhunter]

hmm from the video it seems that because the blunderbuss completely knocks down the enemy unit every volley they can get more volleys off before the enemy closes. while for the fireglaives that elf unit just walked through the fire with barely any slowdown.

also it seems because of how staggered the firing is on fireglaives. it takes them like 9 seconds to complete a volley so even with 9 sec reload it takes them alot longer to fire another volley compared to other ranged units

cant test it now but i wonder how blunderbuss does vs fireglaive when supporting allied infantry from behind.
if i remember correctly the fireglaives have a small arc that allows them to safely shoot over friendly units while a blunderbuss will mulch your lines just as much as the enemy
through maybe im just remembering wrong

also i wonder if veterancy makes a huge difference between them or not

[Professor H. Farnsworth]

Here's what you're missing

Blunderbusses do not have fire damage. Fire Glaives do. Use Fire Glaives correctly and you can easily increase their damage by 20-70%.
It's all in the synergy and how you use it.

Originally posted by Warhunter:

hmm from the video it seems that because the blunderbuss completely knocks down the enemy unit every volley they can get more volleys off before the enemy closes. while for the fireglaives that elf unit just walked through the fire with barely any slowdown.

also it seems because of how staggered the firing is on fireglaives. it takes them like 9 seconds to complete a volley so even with 9 sec reload it takes them alot longer to fire another volley compared to other ranged units

cant test it now but i wonder how blunderbuss does vs fireglaive when supporting allied infantry from behind.
if i remember correctly the fireglaives have a small arc that allows them to safely shoot over friendly units while a blunderbuss will mulch your lines just as much as the enemy
through maybe im just remembering wrong

also i wonder if veterancy makes a huge difference between them or not

Blunderbusses will absolutely shred your own line as well, have to shoot from a flank, not behind an enemy unit or it'll penetrate straight through and you'll be sad.

Same veterancy, just accuracy they get. So nothing major.

All in all, I get the same amount of kills on Blunderbusses and Fire Glaives where my Fire Glaives pull ahead on monstrous units and single entities.