Undead can't recover from crumbling?

[Duskmare]

I had a unit of dogs that were crumbling when I got victory. They went up to 20 leadership and were still crumbling. I healed them 4 times and they still had the same number of units, gaining about 500 hp.

Crumbling seems a bit busted if you can't recover from it. It just means it's extremely difficult to save specific units, heroes and lords included. You'd have to manually retreat them off the battlefield to keep them from just wasting away, rather than just putting them on the back line, like you could with every other faction.

Or does it just lock in whatever status they had when the victory was achieved? As a kind of counter to being able to heal while enemies retreat?

[Ashardalon]

normally when they regain morale the crumbling should stop
ofcourse crumbling causes damage so the taking damage moral debuff makes recovering quite hard

from what you describe there could be two things going on
-one is the victory locking the crumbling in, the game does tend to semi stop when victory is announced for some things in the background
i dont think this used to be the case, but i havnt tested it out
-another option is if they have been reduced to crumbling trice during the battle, honestly not sure this applies to crumbling like it does to shattered
i know normally units shattered trice become unrecoverably broken no matter how healthy and full of marale they should be
never seen this happen to undead because of the crumbling usually killing before it gets that far
but it wouldnt surprise me that depth and faction uniqueness was lost in game 3

would require testing to check wich it is

[Duskmare]

Originally posted by Ashardalon:

normally when they regain morale the crumbling should stop
ofcourse crumbling causes damage so the taking damage moral debuff makes recovering quite hard

from what you describe there could be two things going on
-one is the victory locking the crumbling in, the game does tend to semi stop when victory is announced for some things in the background
i dont think this used to be the case, but i havnt tested it out
-another option is if they have been reduced to crumbling trice during the battle, honestly not sure this applies to crumbling like it does to shattered
i know normally units shattered trice become unrecoverably broken no matter how healthy and full of marale they should be
never seen this happen to undead because of the crumbling usually killing before it gets that far
but it wouldnt surprise me that depth and faction uniqueness was lost in game 3

would require testing to check wich it is

Hmm, yeah. I have a feeling it might be the victory thing. Annoying that you lose units after winning sometimes but I guess it's a balance to healing after winning too.

[Crystal]

Can confirm this behavior and it is a bug to at least to some degree. In WH2, once you win, crumbling ceases to affect units, no matter how close they were to dying. In WH3, instead of removing crumbling when victory happens, it locks it, meaning if your unit was crumbling when you got victory, no matter how much you'd spam heal on the unit, it will keep crumbling indefinitely until you click "end battle".

[The Reaperman]

I've had the same with this. Hopefully it is a bug and will be fixed.

[VGMFE]

Nope still in the game, my Varghulf died due crumbling after winning, while i was chasing down the retreating to use The Hunger, and it was decreasing while i was casting Invocation of Nehek, and i lost it at the result view.
Bad CA, very Bad!

[Imposter]

Well, there are certain constants that keeps the leadership low. Damage taken, fatigue, and limited to the modifier for large units 'wounded', and friendly losses, edit* and Campaign leadership debuff that affects enemy armies)

Once those are stuck in place, even if you are winning, it will still keep those numbers. Sometimes, crumbling can stop, if a crumbling unit peels off and replaced with a supporting unit, and even better with a lord nearby, especially with passive healing-(unless the healing hits its cap).

I often have to halt my crumbling unit after winning so it doesn't keep incurring negative leadership when they are exhausted, it helps, but sometimes their health is far too low for salvation anyway.

[Duskmare]

Originally posted by Imposter:

Well, there are certain constants that keeps the leadership low. Damage taken, fatigue, and limited to the modifier for large units 'wounded', and friendly losses, edit* and Campaign leadership debuff that affects enemy armies)

Once those are stuck in place, even if you are winning, it will still keep those numbers. Sometimes, crumbling can stop, if a crumbling unit peels off and replaced with a supporting unit, and even better with a lord nearby, especially with passive healing-(unless the healing hits its cap).

I often have to halt my crumbling unit after winning so it doesn't keep incurring negative leadership when they are exhausted, it helps, but sometimes their health is far too low for salvation anyway.

I think you're misunderstanding. This issue is specifically with what happens after the victory. So when the game says "you win!" and you get to choose when to end the battle or to run down enemy units.

After that screen comes up, all leadership seems to freeze where it is for undead units. Which means any unit that was just barely crumbling won't recover, even if you restore a lot of it's health, put it near a lord, have them charge at fleeing enemy units, etc.

So you basically have to choose whether to end the battle to save the units that are crumbling for no reason at this point, or to chase down enemy units to prevent the enemy army surviving with decent entity numbers.

It's just annoying because after the battle is won the leadership should either function normally, where you can bring it back to positive, or it should stop working but set all your units to maximum leadership. I mean, you did just win the battle so a surge of morale would be entirely expected.

[identity]

Originally posted by Duskmare:

After that screen comes up, all leadership seems to freeze where it is for undead units. Which means any unit that was just barely crumbling won't recover, even if you restore a lot of it's health, put it near a lord, have them charge at fleeing enemy units, etc.

It makes sense that it would do this, since the battle is over and it needs to keep enemy units from rallying.

At any rate, you seemed to figure out the problem. I've noticed this as well, and it does just come down to a choice of ending battle or letting it die to mop up. Doesn't usually matter, you have a pretty good chance of getting it back with dead rise again, or just raising a new unit. Loss of experience sucks, but lack of unit experience isn't VC's problem.

There are spells that will help save a unit from crumbling during battle, like Aspect of the Dread Knight.

[Duskmare]

Originally posted by identity:

Originally posted by Duskmare:

After that screen comes up, all leadership seems to freeze where it is for undead units. Which means any unit that was just barely crumbling won't recover, even if you restore a lot of it's health, put it near a lord, have them charge at fleeing enemy units, etc.

It makes sense that it would do this, since the battle is over and it needs to keep enemy units from rallying.

At any rate, you seemed to figure out the problem. I've noticed this as well, and it does just come down to a choice of ending battle or letting it die to mop up. Doesn't usually matter, you have a pretty good chance of getting it back with dead rise again, or just raising a new unit. Loss of experience sucks, but lack of unit experience isn't VC's problem.

There are spells that will help save a unit from crumbling during battle, like Aspect of the Dread Knight.

Yeah, it's manageable but I don't think it's intended. Do non-undead factions remain routing forever after you win? Cause that would give us a hint as to whether it's intended behaviour or not.

You can also retreat the crumbling character, assuming you weren't ambushed or had retreated already, and they're near enough a map edge.

Saving them during the battle is the easy part, it's when you finish the battle, do a quick check of your units and see one of your important ones crumbling, like a lord, hero or high tier starting units crumbling that you have to basically give up your chance to decimate the fleeing army. Which, if intended is fine, but I don't think it's intended that way, which makes it annoying, haha.

[Spell]

In TWWH2:
Grave Guard[twwstats.com]
Go down to passive abilities, mouse over Crumbling (blue broken shield), look at line:
Disabled if: Leadership is above zero, battle outcome decieded.

In TWWH3:
Grave Guard[twwstats.com]
Go down to passive, mouse over:
Disabled if: Leadership is broken.

So there are different conditionals for it to be disabled.

Edit: Better llink with both unitcards next to eachother.[twwstats.com]

[Duskmare]

Originally posted by Spell:

In TWWH2:
Grave Guard[twwstats.com]
Go down to passive abilities, mouse over Crumbling (blue broken shield), look at line:
Disabled if: Leadership is above zero, battle outcome decieded.

In TWWH3:
Grave Guard[twwstats.com]
Go down to passive, mouse over:
Disabled if: Leadership is broken.

So there are different conditionals for it to be disabled.

Edit: Better llink with both unitcards next to eachother.[twwstats.com]

Right, but leadership doesn't recover after the battle outcome is decided. So it's not just when leadership is low, it's when leadership is low or when leadership was low and the battle outcome is decided.

It is kinda funny that it seems like they changed the description rather than fixing the bug though.