Vampire Counts (only) vs Tomb kings (vampire coast is pretty strong)

[Molester of all Eggs]

Was wondering this since tomb king introduction in wh2. In wh3 vampire coasts feels sorta weak to me rn especially with the empires new fancy guns. Which undead faction is better here?

[Tommytools]

Better is subjective, better in what way?

Btw: your OP states vampire counts, but the body of text states vampire coast. Two similar, but at the same time very different factions.

Personally I'd say coast, counts and tomb kings are fine as they are (though I disagree with Vlad being nerfed, he really wasn't that hard to deal with). I have little issue playing any of the three and find that they are significantly more fun to play than many of the chaos factions (WoC, DoC and beastmen).

[Ashley]

Don't know why you brought up vampire coast but in case all three of these factions play differently. Coast is focused on guns and really nothing else (Kings and Counts can't do this) Vampire counts focus on overwhelming and lasting long with regen (best regen out of all 3)
Tomb kings are free armies that depend on unit caps and want more mainly constructs to carry them to victory

They're not the same faction at all

[Fryskar]

Imo all 3 aren't that strong.

To keep it short.
VCoast is dated, it can't really compare to newer blackpowder focused factions. It got some nice mosters and can doomstack well with necrofexes, but thats it.

Tk is a slow faction and just as dated. Your steamroll start picking up steam as other factions are already blazing at full speed.
The units are ok, their monsters help to keep them somewhat relevant. Their capped herocount hurts them.

Can't really point at Vcounts issues. They aren't bad, but imo not really good either.

[Tommytools]

Originally posted by Fryskar:

Imo all 3 aren't that strong.

To keep it short.
VCoast is dated, it can't really compare to newer blackpowder focused factions. It got some nice mosters and can doomstack well with necrofexes, but thats it.

Tk is a slow faction and just as dated. Your steamroll start picking up steam as other factions are already blazing at full speed.
The units are ok, their monsters help to keep them somewhat relevant. Their capped herocount hurts them.

Can't really point at Vcounts issues. They aren't bad, but imo not really good either.

I have to agree with that, especially TK (victory conditions and settra's faction effects) and vampirates could use an update, preferably a rework, but I do have hope (not expectations, just hope) that might be in the works (in future).

[Slyspy]

Install a mod that allows the recruitment of multiple Besses, enjoy loads of cheap gunlines with Vampirates. Above all remember that you don't have to play all the factions in the game the same way.

[Alejandro]

Vampire Coast is pretty strong once you actually use all the buffs from having battles that count as sea battles and you can build high pretty well, though I do play with Radious mods so you do get more units to choose from but either way you can't really lose with the Vampire Coast ever since your ship building and constant sea treasure islands will keep you alive.

[Harukage]

Originally posted by Alejandro:

Vampire Coast is pretty strong once you actually use all the buffs from having battles that count as sea battles and you can build high pretty well, though I do play with Radious mods so you do get more units to choose from but either way you can't really lose with the Vampire Coast ever since your ship building and constant sea treasure islands will keep you alive.

This.
I have no idea why people say it needs a rework. It is one of the easiest legendary campaigns simply because of how this faction is isanely strong. And they have enough mechanics between their legendary admirals with mobile bases, pirate coves, vampiric corruption, admiral council and rising drowned dead.
Just do not expand thoughtlesly and preferably act on coasts and islands. Build economy and work towards unlocking all of your legendary admirals. Than you can roll over anything inside continents.
Plus they are even more insane in terms of rising multiple stacks of high tier units per turn than VC. You can literally send one legendary admiral and rise a couple default admirals with full stacks on the way, before hiting enemies like a storm of lead and dead meat.

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by Harukage:

Originally posted by Alejandro:

Vampire Coast is pretty strong once you actually use all the buffs from having battles that count as sea battles and you can build high pretty well, though I do play with Radious mods so you do get more units to choose from but either way you can't really lose with the Vampire Coast ever since your ship building and constant sea treasure islands will keep you alive.

This.
I have no idea why people say it needs a rework. It is one of the easiest legendary campaigns simply because of how this faction is isanely strong. And they have enough mechanics between their legendary admirals with mobile bases, pirate coves, vampiric corruption, admiral council and rising drowned dead.
Just do not expand thoughtlesly and preferably act on coasts and islands. Build economy and work towards unlocking all of your legendary admirals. Than you can roll over anything inside continents.
Plus they are even more insane in terms of rising multiple stacks of high tier units per turn than VC. You can literally send one legendary admiral and rise a couple default admirals with full stacks on the way, before hiting enemies like a storm of lead and dead meat.

I wouldn't consider them strong, even if they can close up to what better factions can do after VCoast hits lategame buffs.

They have mobile reinforcement, in form of bases as well as raise dead. Others simply don't need it or have alternative forms at hand. Like DE arks, WoC deamon gifts, lizard blessed spawns or dwarf grudge settlers.

Their eco just isn't great. They don't have the massive boosts on sacking or battle income others have.
Their cove income depends on a few rich locations and the ai to build them up. You also need coves for mournghuls and wights.
Their settlement income is just low.

Their inf is medicore and dependant on stuff like magic for healing.
Their ranged inf is good for burst dmg until their black powder aplenty runs out, after it they are just inferior to their counterparts.

They are cheap, numerous and imprecise.

Their monsters are nothing special, like their arty.
Most of their rituals are not great, the QB ritual should be replaced and QB becoming normally recruitable, with or w.o. cap.

[Alejandro]

Originally posted by Fryskar:

I wouldn't consider them strong, even if they can close up to what better factions can do after VCoast hits lategame buffs.

They have mobile reinforcement, in form of bases as well as raise dead. Others simply don't need it or have alternative forms at hand. Like DE arks, WoC deamon gifts, lizard blessed spawns or dwarf grudge settlers.

Their eco just isn't great. They don't have the massive boosts on sacking or battle income others have.
Their cove income depends on a few rich locations and the ai to build them up. You also need coves for mournghuls and wights.
Their settlement income is just low.

Their inf is medicore and dependant on stuff like magic for healing.
Their ranged inf is good for burst dmg until their black powder aplenty runs out, after it they are just inferior to their counterparts.

They are cheap, numerous and imprecise.

Their monsters are nothing special, like their arty.
Most of their rituals are not great, the QB ritual should be replaced and QB becoming normally recruitable, with or w.o. cap.

Everything you say gets to be completely irrelevant once you actually rule the seas though, Vampire coast is very unique due to the fact that you are not forced to wage wars in any particular area, you are free to choose where to go and where to expand.

I have never had any problems with income since it's possible to get 8000 gold per any given sea corpse or hidden island, Noctilus has a good boost of income from winning battles and sacking settlements too and sending an agent to dig treasures is also additional easy income.

Your army does replenish faster than any other faction around you and you can get new troops instantly which nobody around you can do. On top of that you can spawn zombie units and rotting Prometheans and Noctilus can heal units, you will never ever have a problem with having armies, at all and the upkeep reduction on the Necrofex is ridiculous.

The main settlement Galleon's Graveyard is located away from everything so you have to play super drunk in order to have a blunder and not defend it when needed, even on super hard difficulty I have never had a problem defending it.

Noctilus can end up having a powerful army that is hard to beat but that alone doesn't make this faction strong, it's the fact that Vampire Coast is so flexible and that their firepower and fight potential never gets exhausted, you just have to understand that you don't need to push an envelope, you're free to do whatever you want from your position while other factions can't really say that.

You can get crushed but in comparison to all other factions you have the luxury to come back again and again, Luther Harkon is harder to play due to the importance of the Ancient Vault and the Lizzard factions can overwhelm him but otherwise Noctilus is one of the most powerful lords due to his unique position and playstyle.

[Fryskar]

Originally posted by Alejandro:

Originally posted by Fryskar:

I wouldn't consider them strong, even if they can close up to what better factions can do after VCoast hits lategame buffs.

They have mobile reinforcement, in form of bases as well as raise dead. Others simply don't need it or have alternative forms at hand. Like DE arks, WoC deamon gifts, lizard blessed spawns or dwarf grudge settlers.

Their eco just isn't great. They don't have the massive boosts on sacking or battle income others have.
Their cove income depends on a few rich locations and the ai to build them up. You also need coves for mournghuls and wights.
Their settlement income is just low.

Their inf is medicore and dependant on stuff like magic for healing.
Their ranged inf is good for burst dmg until their black powder aplenty runs out, after it they are just inferior to their counterparts.

They are cheap, numerous and imprecise.

Their monsters are nothing special, like their arty.
Most of their rituals are not great, the QB ritual should be replaced and QB becoming normally recruitable, with or w.o. cap.

Everything you say gets to be completely irrelevant once you actually rule the seas though, Vampire coast is very unique due to the fact that you are not forced to wage wars in any particular area, you are free to choose where to go and where to expand.

I have never had any problems with income since it's possible to get 8000 gold per any given sea corpse or hidden island, Noctilus has a good boost of income from winning battles and sacking settlements too and sending an agent to dig treasures is also additional easy income.

Your army does replenish faster than any other faction around you and you can get new troops instantly which nobody around you can do. On top of that you can spawn zombie units and rotting Prometheans and Noctilus can heal units, you will never ever have a problem with having armies, at all and the upkeep reduction on the Necrofex is ridiculous.

The main settlement Galleon's Graveyard is located away from everything so you have to play super drunk in order to have a blunder and not defend it when needed, even on super hard difficulty I have never had a problem defending it.

Noctilus can end up having a powerful army that is hard to beat but that alone doesn't make this faction strong, it's the fact that Vampire Coast is so flexible and that their firepower and fight potential never gets exhausted, you just have to understand that you don't need to push an envelope, you're free to do whatever you want from your position while other factions can't really say that.

You can get crushed but in comparison to all other factions you have the luxury to come back again and again, Luther Harkon is harder to play due to the importance of the Ancient Vault and the Lizzard factions can overwhelm him but otherwise Noctilus is one of the most powerful lords due to his unique position and playstyle.

Becoming strong long after others already are in the mopping up phase isn't exactly a sign for a strong faction.

I'll agree to disagree.

[Harukage]

Idk. I never had problem playing Luthor. I usualy take full starting province, then take away island province from nearby skaven. Bash some sense into nearby brettonians and sail out steal to Galleon's Graveyard and Sartosa for myself.
Lizardmen are usualy busy enough to only send 1-2 stacks once in a while to harrass me, but i already have a second stack defending Awakening area by that time. And i replace default lord by one of legendaries as soon as i can get one from research.
Legendary admirals have unique building in their magic ships that grant bonuses while defending. Also do not forget that artillery buildings grant you offmap artillery strikes. So that is usefull too.
I know people love necrofex stacks with Noctilus. But i prefer THE pirate king of the Vampire Coast. He is a meat grinder by himself, and when he gets terrogheist and his magic back - he is almost unstopable force of destruction.
Noctilus is... he is literally just a random mook Von Carstein who got a teleportation done wrong, and now thinks himself a proper count.

[badger vortex]

playing lokhir fellheart is just a much more satisfying piratey campaign than the vampire coast. feels like they really did overnerf the VC economy and coves especially. the roster just has so few good units too, it's not an exciting faction to play the campaign mechanics don't really offer interesting bonus'

you can win campaigns with them, just like any faction, but outside the aesthetics they just fall short in every other area compared to most other races

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Alejandro:

Vampire Coast is pretty strong once you actually use all the buffs from having battles that count as sea battles and you can build high pretty well, though I do play with Radious mods so you do get more units to choose from but either way you can't really lose with the Vampire Coast ever since your ship building and constant sea treasure islands will keep you alive.

Radious is the worst mod when you need to compare rosters and also stay faithful to the rulebook.

Radious is overloaded with units practically making every faction have a counter for every faction thus making faction distinctions, which is play your strong cards and minimize your weak points obsolete.

What is needed is a refresh of Norscan,TK,VC etc etc.

[Alejandro]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep:

Originally posted by Alejandro:

Vampire Coast is pretty strong once you actually use all the buffs from having battles that count as sea battles and you can build high pretty well, though I do play with Radious mods so you do get more units to choose from but either way you can't really lose with the Vampire Coast ever since your ship building and constant sea treasure islands will keep you alive.

Radious is the worst mod when you need to compare rosters and also stay faithful to the rulebook.

Radious is overloaded with units practically making every faction have a counter for every faction thus making faction distinctions, which is play your strong cards and minimize your weak points obsolete.

What is needed is a refresh of Norscan,TK,VC etc etc.

I won a very hard campaign without Radious, I play now with those mods cause I find it more fun but the location and essentially the way the Vampire Coast are remains the same.

[Ashley]

Mostly the issue I have with vampire coast is that their infantry is terrible and so are their monsters both end up being painfully mid. And their artillery and gunpowder their strengths aren't even that much better in much opinion besides necroflex. Feels like empire and chaos dwarves are doing both better than coast is now in those departments.