Beastmen archers? I thought lore-wise beastmen dont use bows?

[Vanir]

I was reading some Gotrek and Felix novels and they mentioned one of the only good things about marauding beastmen is how they don't use ranged weapons.

[SpaceGoatMage]

Some of the Gotrek and Felix books are ancient so the lore in them might not be up to date.

Still great reads though.

[Avallac]

Those are a specific breed of beastmen with bows, bestigors and other ones don't use bows.
Same thing with vampire counts. They do have crappy skeleton archers as well as crossbow and gun human conscripts from sylvannia, they are not exactly melee only faction, though in-game there is no reason to use vampire ranged units past tier 2. Oh right CA will prob add those as dlc, forgot its Radious overhaul that has the rosters filled out with lore units, vanilla always has massive gaps to be filled later.

Technically even black orcs in the lore could use ranged weapons. The lore says the were intelligent, "civillized" orc that did not care what was "cool" they'd use anything and everything if it gave them an edge in combat. From ranged weapons to ambush tactics and other things regular orcs would refuse to use. People were pretty unhappy when Radious added black orc crossbowmen or whatever it was like 8 years ago so they were scrapped. Still, if you look at the lore, its not as black and white in terms of "this faction is melee only" and so on.
I'm not a lore expert but from myself looking into it to see how much of Radious units were lore friendly I was surprised what kind of weird stuff in the lore in the first place lol.

[CasualHamza]

They might make Slaangors archers, but that really depend on if GW lets them

[Lokaror]

Yeah, if its the novel i think you are referencing that book is atleast a decade if not two by now.

Honestly it makes sense the weaker gors would try and get ranged weapons, right? To try and stay out of the way of the bigger ones and also to up their chances of killing a target and not getting in melee. If i was one of the weakest beastmen like hell i'd get scrapping with trained soldiers if i could shoot at them with bows *and* stay out of the way of the bigger gors who may backhand me to get stuck in faster.

[Dr. Uncredible]

Originally posted by Lokaror:

Yeah, if its the novel i think you are referencing that book is atleast a decade if not two by now.

Honestly it makes sense the weaker gors would try and get ranged weapons, right? To try and stay out of the way of the bigger ones and also to up their chances of killing a target and not getting in melee. If i was one of the weakest beastmen like hell i'd get scrapping with trained soldiers if i could shoot at them with bows *and* stay out of the way of the bigger gors who may backhand me to get stuck in faster.

Aye, same with ungors being the only ones to use spears.
Bows and spears are great weapons for weaklings like ungors. Or elves.

[Smugass Braixen-Chan]

People who know nothing about bows or medieval warfare always think bows are for the weak. Strong people would never use a bow, and instead use melee weapons because that's what big and tough people use.

The reality is that bows require a lot of upper body-strength to use effectively, especially bows with enough draw-weight to actually kill somebody in armour. (At least chain-mail. The only real way to punch through plate armour is lucky shots slipping through the gaps, or with a gun)

A big strong beastman or orc would be able to use a bow with an incredibly high draw-weight, which would give them more range and killing power. Also, if you are very strong, you would have a much easier time accurately aiming shots, and having a high rate of fire. And at close range, an orc with a bow *might* even be able to pierce plate armour. At least early-plate, because 16th Century armour (Which is the tech level the Empire would be at, steam-tanks not withstanding) is designed to be BULLETPROOF.

[Vanir]

Originally posted by Smugass Braixen-Chan:

People who know nothing about bows or medieval warfare always think bows are for the weak. Strong people would never use a bow, and instead use melee weapons because that's what big and tough people use.

The reality is that bows require a lot of upper body-strength to use effectively, especially bows with enough draw-weight to actually kill somebody in armour. (At least chain-mail. The only real way to punch through plate armour is lucky shots slipping through the gaps, or with a gun)

A big strong beastman or orc would be able to use a bow with an incredibly high draw-weight, which would give them more range and killing power. Also, if you are very strong, you would have a much easier time accurately aiming shots, and having a high rate of fire. And at close range, an orc with a bow *might* even be able to pierce plate armour. At least early-plate, because 16th Century armour (Which is the tech level the Empire would be at, steam-tanks not withstanding) is designed to be BULLETPROOF.

Well I'm referencing the lore-accurate Beastmen, and their whole schtick is anti-civilization which I guess would include any sort of 'advanced' weapons. Also lore-wise they don't even know how to build boats... until a certain one-off event taught them to.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Smugass Braixen-Chan:

People who know nothing about bows or medieval warfare always think bows are for the weak. Strong people would never use a bow, and instead use melee weapons because that's what big and tough people use.

The reality is that bows require a lot of upper body-strength to use effectively, especially bows with enough draw-weight to actually kill somebody in armour. (At least chain-mail. The only real way to punch through plate armour is lucky shots slipping through the gaps, or with a gun)

A big strong beastman or orc would be able to use a bow with an incredibly high draw-weight, which would give them more range and killing power. Also, if you are very strong, you would have a much easier time accurately aiming shots, and having a high rate of fire. And at close range, an orc with a bow *might* even be able to pierce plate armour. At least early-plate, because 16th Century armour (Which is the tech level the Empire would be at, steam-tanks not withstanding) is designed to be BULLETPROOF.

They aren't necessarily talking about physical strength in this scenario. Rather mental strength.

Ungors is the lowest cast of Beastmen (well, there are technically two lower types, but they aren't part of the game) and generally considered the weakest (Your standing in a beastmen herd is honestly based on horn size, no matter your physical strength), but unless i am mistaken ungors are still generally physically stronger then the average human.

Basically bows are seen as a weapon for weaklings because you kill enemies from afar, that is it. The chaos gods also seem to not like ranged weapons in general (if i were to venture a guess its because killing with a ranged weapon is less emotional and the chaos gods feed on strong emotions. Ranged magic admittedly tends to get a pass, by every god but Khorne, but that is likely because that is using chaos itself).

[Falaris]

Beastmen may have archers, but they are some of the worst archers in the game and hardly worth the effort; I would expect them to be rare enough in armies that G&F might not have heard of them.

It is a fallacy to expect characters to have perfect setting knowledge.

[Ashley]

Originally posted by Falaris:

Beastmen may have archers, but they are some of the worst archers in the game and hardly worth the effort; I would expect them to be rare enough in armies that G&F might not have heard of them.

It is a fallacy to expect characters to have perfect setting knowledge.

This is true

Characters saying something about a setting does not make it true

The public in warhammer says skaven don't exist but they do.

[killtastic201]

Originally posted by Ashley:

Originally posted by Falaris:

Beastmen may have archers, but they are some of the worst archers in the game and hardly worth the effort; I would expect them to be rare enough in armies that G&F might not have heard of them.

It is a fallacy to expect characters to have perfect setting knowledge.

This is true

Characters saying something about a setting does not make it true

The public in warhammer says skaven don't exist but they do.

NONSENSE YES YES! NO RAT MEN LIVING IN THE SEWERS, STUPID MANTHING! GET GET HIM WITCH FINDER! FILTHY HERETIC!

[killtastic201]

Beastmen do use the most rudimentary of technology when coerced to do so by their leaders. I think there is lore that malagor made them start using ladders for sieges, and they obviously use chariots, so bows aren't a big surprise... this is just to say that beastmen archers are pretty horrid for accuracy, and have very weak power in their bows. they aren't really something most races would consider when fighting them, as their more of a harrassing/ nuisance/ distraction unit. characters in WH fantasy also don't have omniscient knowledge of the setting they exist in either. gotrek and felix dont know explicitly everything about every race and faction in the setting. it would be reasonable for a character like gotrek to have never heard of beastmen archers because he's from dwarven society. a place where the mere concept of what the beastmen call "archery" is going to be laughed down as a joke or completely disregarded because dwarves are so blindingly advanced by comparison, and so well armored that they are unlikely to take even a single casualty from such an attack.

[fenlander]

Originally posted by Vanir:

I was reading some Gotrek and Felix novels and they mentioned one of the only good things about marauding beastmen is how they don't use ranged weapons.

The beastmen that use bows are weaker than their larger cousins. They are the closest to being human and seen as inferior than the Gors, and are often used as cannon fodder. Beastmen have always had access to archers, but are notoriously weak in them.

[playing tf2 whilst driving]

Originally posted by Smugass Braixen-Chan:

People who know nothing about bows or medieval warfare always think bows are for the weak. Strong people would never use a bow, and instead use melee weapons because that's what big and tough people use.

The reality is that bows require a lot of upper body-strength to use effectively, especially bows with enough draw-weight to actually kill somebody in armour.

This is actually a myth - it's been found that regardless of the poundage of a bow the effort required to draw it remains consistent. This is because the stored energy in the limb actually aids in pulling the string after a certain point

[fenlander]

Originally posted by the big stink:

Originally posted by Smugass Braixen-Chan:

People who know nothing about bows or medieval warfare always think bows are for the weak. Strong people would never use a bow, and instead use melee weapons because that's what big and tough people use.

The reality is that bows require a lot of upper body-strength to use effectively, especially bows with enough draw-weight to actually kill somebody in armour.

This is actually a myth - it's been found that regardless of the poundage of a bow the effort required to draw it remains consistent. This is because the stored energy in the limb actually aids in pulling the string after a certain point

I would like to point out however as an Archer myself that the War Bows of 180lbs draw weight and upwards to 200 lbs, deformed the archer using them. This is evidenced on the Mary Rose when it was discovered. These types of bow require a certain method to draw as well.
Although it is myth that they can punch through plate armour, being hit by one would drive you to the ground as stated by a French nobleman recounting Agincourt during the 100 year war after he got hit by an arrow from such a bow.

Also detailed the Longbow can drive an arrow through bullet proof glass, this was documented from the making of an old 1980's TV series called "The Hooded Man." which was a series about Robin Hood.