Total War: WARHAMMER III

Total War: WARHAMMER III

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AstroMonkey Nov 23, 2024 @ 3:14pm
I always lose vs chaos in melee ( ROC / Kislev )
Playing on VH/VH with no AI bonuses to units stats and i do fine against humans and norscans.

I have armies with high rank units, wheter it's ice guards, amored kossars, tzar guards, i've tried everything over the course of different campaigns but i stop manually winning battles when nurgle and other enemies attack.

I understand nurgle poison my units decreasing their performance but even with that debuff stat wise they are just better, yet they seem to lose EVERY GOSH DARN TIME.

In addition if my units break a fingernail they die, but for enemy units i have to bring them to 10 hp before actually killing their models(10hp is figurative, i once brought down a chaos dwarf unit to 10% hp and they lost only 30% of their models).

I can't progress, i can't win, my allies are dead inside, outside and all around them and it makes me want to leave a neg review and free 130 gb for less infuriating stuff.

What the hell am i doing wrong?

I even use katharina and the patriarch to blob as much as i can and winter things to oblivion by my army crumbles.
Chaos seems broken btw to play against
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Showing 1-15 of 67 comments
JODEGAFUN Nov 23, 2024 @ 4:03pm 
First if you play VH-battle difficult do not complain the enemie has better units, they get buffs. If you play Chaos aiganst Kislev on VH you will wonder how tough tzar guard can be. And Chaos (if not Tzeench, but the have to very tough meele) is one of the if not the most meele focused faction in the game, try to avoid meele as long as possible.
Light sleds are a good counter aiganst a lot of their units, if you use them right they can delay some of their units allow your other units to concentrate fire.
Volsung Nov 23, 2024 @ 4:12pm 
Enemies get stat boosts based on combat difficulty but you can turn these down while leaving it at VH for better battle AI without crazy stat cheats
Garatgh Deloi Nov 23, 2024 @ 4:27pm 
Originally posted by AstroMonkey:
Playing on VH/VH with no AI bonuses to units stats and i do fine against humans and norscans.

I have armies with high rank units, wheter it's ice guards, amored kossars, tzar guards, i've tried everything over the course of different campaigns but i stop manually winning battles when nurgle and other enemies attack.

I understand nurgle poison my units decreasing their performance but even with that debuff stat wise they are just better, yet they seem to lose EVERY GOSH DARN TIME.

In addition if my units break a fingernail they die, but for enemy units i have to bring them to 10 hp before actually killing their models(10hp is figurative, i once brought down a chaos dwarf unit to 10% hp and they lost only 30% of their models).

I can't progress, i can't win, my allies are dead inside, outside and all around them and it makes me want to leave a neg review and free 130 gb for less infuriating stuff.

What the hell am i doing wrong?

I even use katharina and the patriarch to blob as much as i can and winter things to oblivion by my army crumbles.
Chaos seems broken btw to play against

Most of the chaos armies (not including the chaos dwarfs) don't have any good ranged options, so in order to balance them their melee options will generally be better then a army that has such options.

Your key to victory is thus effectively using your other options as well as melee.
Last edited by Garatgh Deloi; Nov 23, 2024 @ 4:29pm
Avallac Nov 23, 2024 @ 4:57pm 
2
Originally posted by JODEGAFUN:
First if you play VH-battle difficult do not complain the enemie has better units, they get buffs. If you play Chaos aiganst Kislev on VH you will wonder how tough tzar guard can be. And Chaos (if not Tzeench, but the have to very tough meele) is one of the if not the most meele focused faction in the game, try to avoid meele as long as possible.
Light sleds are a good counter aiganst a lot of their units, if you use them right they can delay some of their units allow your other units to concentrate fire.
Wrong.

Originally posted by Volsung:
Enemies get stat boosts based on combat difficulty but you can turn these down while leaving it at VH for better battle AI without crazy stat cheats
He says in his post he has no stat buffs for enemy units.



Originally posted by AstroMonkey:
Playing on VH/VH with no AI bonuses to units stats and i do fine against humans and norscans.

I have armies with high rank units, wheter it's ice guards, amored kossars, tzar guards, i've tried everything over the course of different campaigns but i stop manually winning battles when nurgle and other enemies attack.

I understand nurgle poison my units decreasing their performance but even with that debuff stat wise they are just better, yet they seem to lose EVERY GOSH DARN TIME.

In addition if my units break a fingernail they die, but for enemy units i have to bring them to 10 hp before actually killing their models(10hp is figurative, i once brought down a chaos dwarf unit to 10% hp and they lost only 30% of their models).

I can't progress, i can't win, my allies are dead inside, outside and all around them and it makes me want to leave a neg review and free 130 gb for less infuriating stuff.

What the hell am i doing wrong?

I even use katharina and the patriarch to blob as much as i can and winter things to oblivion by my army crumbles.
Chaos seems broken btw to play against
what you did wrong is play the game vanilla. Nobody that is familiar with Total War series plays the game unmodded and especially without a major overhaul. Imagine playing Medieval 2 without stainless steel overhaul, its gross.
Try Radious overhaul for warhammer 3 and enjoy proper balance, economy, AI and so on. Top it off with Legendary characters mod + submod and OVN lost world which also has a compatiblity patch for Radious and you will never be disappointed again. Radious adds about 500 units from the lore too so your rosters aren't going to be missing units that should be there but aren't so that CA can add them later as DLC. Radious used to have most dlc units that have come out before the dlc's were released. Funnily enough CA loves copy pasting skills/techs and lord types Radious made too, not just units. Might as well get ahead of the CA's development and for free and play the game the way its meant to be played, no artificial slog of vanilla, no worthless AI that has too little money to even function, no more spamming ranged units that magically kill everything with arrows before it has a chance to get close, no more battles ending too quickly to even do some kind of interesting strategy and so on.
Last edited by Avallac; Nov 23, 2024 @ 4:59pm
Greldinart Nov 23, 2024 @ 5:24pm 
except tzeench all demons are strong in melee, . so of course you are weaker than a race specialzed in melee, kislev is hybrid distance melee, except T4/5 your melee is bad, so the main strategy for katrina is melee/ranged+slow with ice + and finish by a classic infantry anvil cav hammer., for boris it is less ranged and more anvil hammer with bear. kostaltyn suck, and the witch is a ambush lord like shadow/stellar +monster for tank.
for outperformed chaos you must use more your ranged dps, and use kitting with ice magic or cav/chariot. your infantry can break chaos but not if they are not helped by ranged/charge or magic.
JODEGAFUN Nov 23, 2024 @ 5:50pm 
Originally posted by Avallac:
Originally posted by JODEGAFUN:
First if you play VH-battle difficult do not complain the enemie has better units, they get buffs. If you play Chaos aiganst Kislev on VH you will wonder how tough tzar guard can be. And Chaos (if not Tzeench, but the have to very tough meele) is one of the if not the most meele focused faction in the game, try to avoid meele as long as possible.
Light sleds are a good counter aiganst a lot of their units, if you use them right they can delay some of their units allow your other units to concentrate fire.
Wrong.

Originally posted by Volsung:
Enemies get stat boosts based on combat difficulty but you can turn these down while leaving it at VH for better battle AI without crazy stat cheats
He says in his post he has no stat buffs for enemy units.



Originally posted by AstroMonkey:
Playing on VH/VH with no AI bonuses to units stats and i do fine against humans and norscans.

I have armies with high rank units, wheter it's ice guards, amored kossars, tzar guards, i've tried everything over the course of different campaigns but i stop manually winning battles when nurgle and other enemies attack.

I understand nurgle poison my units decreasing their performance but even with that debuff stat wise they are just better, yet they seem to lose EVERY GOSH DARN TIME.

In addition if my units break a fingernail they die, but for enemy units i have to bring them to 10 hp before actually killing their models(10hp is figurative, i once brought down a chaos dwarf unit to 10% hp and they lost only 30% of their models).

I can't progress, i can't win, my allies are dead inside, outside and all around them and it makes me want to leave a neg review and free 130 gb for less infuriating stuff.

What the hell am i doing wrong?

I even use katharina and the patriarch to blob as much as i can and winter things to oblivion by my army crumbles.
Chaos seems broken btw to play against
what you did wrong is play the game vanilla. Nobody that is familiar with Total War series plays the game unmodded and especially without a major overhaul. Imagine playing Medieval 2 without stainless steel overhaul, its gross.
Try Radious overhaul for warhammer 3 and enjoy proper balance, economy, AI and so on. Top it off with Legendary characters mod + submod and OVN lost world which also has a compatiblity patch for Radious and you will never be disappointed again. Radious adds about 500 units from the lore too so your rosters aren't going to be missing units that should be there but aren't so that CA can add them later as DLC. Radious used to have most dlc units that have come out before the dlc's were released. Funnily enough CA loves copy pasting skills/techs and lord types Radious made too, not just units. Might as well get ahead of the CA's development and for free and play the game the way its meant to be played, no artificial slog of vanilla, no worthless AI that has too little money to even function, no more spamming ranged units that magically kill everything with arrows before it has a chance to get close, no more battles ending too quickly to even do some kind of interesting strategy and so on.
So Chaos is meele focused and strong in meele is wrong, interessting news. A bit more presice which point is wrong would be helpfull
Last edited by JODEGAFUN; Nov 23, 2024 @ 5:57pm
leandrombraz Nov 23, 2024 @ 6:52pm 
Originally posted by Avallac:
what you did wrong is play the game vanilla. Nobody that is familiar with Total War series plays the game unmodded and especially without a major overhaul. Imagine playing Medieval 2 without stainless steel overhaul, its gross..

Yeah, that's BS. Despite the perceived popularity of mods, you can bet the majority of players play vanilla, and that the percentage of players that install overhauls is even smaller. Vanilla is fine and overhauls are as optional as it gets. A niche, really. Notice that most threads here and on any other TW forum are overwhelmingly about vanilla. If overhauls were such a prominent necessity, that's what we would be talking about. Nobody would care about how CA balances the game, let alone discuss it, after all, what matters is what the overhaul modders are doing.

I have 2k+ hours just on WH3, so I think I'm pretty familiar with TW by now, and I never felt the need to install an overhaul, quite the opposite. They look like a game balanced to please someone else, which defeats the purpose of modding in the first place, which is all about customizing the game for yourself. If I were to use mods — so far I didn't see a single mod that feels like a must — I would tailor the experience to myself and stay away from overhauls. I wouldn't recommend installing one unless you're familiar enough with the game to know what you're buying into.
leandrombraz Nov 23, 2024 @ 7:22pm 
As for the OP, Kislev's strength isn't melee, even though their units can hold quite well. You gotta make good use of your ranged, cavalry and chariot units to do some real damage. Don't bring more than 3 Tzar Guards or even remove them completely. You don't need a melee line. Kislev's hybrid units can fulfill the same role and still do ranged damage.

As for using lords and heroes to blob, do it in range of your ranged units. Kislev's damage spells aren't bad, but they aren't something you want to rely on so heavily. The Lore of Tempest has a spell that buffs your ranged units (+30% range and accuracy), and its passive give a -25% speed debuff, so they are built to focus ranged fire and do as much damage as possible before the enemies can engage. Against Nurgle, you want to eliminate ASAP any Lord or Hero that can heal.

Btw, gun units are a bit sensitive when it comes to LoS, so you need to position them well to get the most of them. Check this simple guide to avoid headaches:
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/7ufew8/a_guide_to_gun_formations_in_total_war_warhammer/
Last edited by leandrombraz; Nov 23, 2024 @ 7:33pm
Velber Nov 23, 2024 @ 8:26pm 
because chaos units have better armor and melee focused units
Avallac Nov 23, 2024 @ 8:40pm 
Originally posted by JODEGAFUN:
Originally posted by Avallac:
Wrong.


He says in his post he has no stat buffs for enemy units.




what you did wrong is play the game vanilla. Nobody that is familiar with Total War series plays the game unmodded and especially without a major overhaul. Imagine playing Medieval 2 without stainless steel overhaul, its gross.
Try Radious overhaul for warhammer 3 and enjoy proper balance, economy, AI and so on. Top it off with Legendary characters mod + submod and OVN lost world which also has a compatiblity patch for Radious and you will never be disappointed again. Radious adds about 500 units from the lore too so your rosters aren't going to be missing units that should be there but aren't so that CA can add them later as DLC. Radious used to have most dlc units that have come out before the dlc's were released. Funnily enough CA loves copy pasting skills/techs and lord types Radious made too, not just units. Might as well get ahead of the CA's development and for free and play the game the way its meant to be played, no artificial slog of vanilla, no worthless AI that has too little money to even function, no more spamming ranged units that magically kill everything with arrows before it has a chance to get close, no more battles ending too quickly to even do some kind of interesting strategy and so on.
So Chaos is meele focused and strong in meele is wrong, interessting news. A bit more presice which point is wrong would be helpfull
Nobody cares about what else you wrote when you started with an inherently wrong premise that on very hard, or any battle difficulty, the AI units have buffs. This only happens if you add those buffs in SEPARATELY on a separate slider and the op clearly stated they have that slider set to 0.


Originally posted by leandrombraz:
Originally posted by Avallac:
what you did wrong is play the game vanilla. Nobody that is familiar with Total War series plays the game unmodded and especially without a major overhaul. Imagine playing Medieval 2 without stainless steel overhaul, its gross..

Yeah, that's BS. Despite the perceived popularity of mods, you can bet the majority of players play vanilla, and that the percentage of players that install overhauls is even smaller. Vanilla is fine and overhauls are as optional as it gets. A niche, really. Notice that most threads here and on any other TW forum are overwhelmingly about vanilla. If overhauls were such a prominent necessity, that's what we would be talking about. Nobody would care about how CA balances the game, let alone discuss it, after all, what matters is what the overhaul modders are doing.

I have 2k+ hours just on WH3, so I think I'm pretty familiar with TW by now, and I never felt the need to install an overhaul, quite the opposite. They look like a game balanced to please someone else, which defeats the purpose of modding in the first place, which is all about customizing the game for yourself. If I were to use mods — so far I didn't see a single mod that feels like a must — I would tailor the experience to myself and stay away from overhauls. I wouldn't recommend installing one unless you're familiar enough with the game to know what you're buying into.
Spoken like someone who's never played total war games (at all except this one) with an overhaul. Yes, people like you who play skyrim or total war vanilla exist. There are more of them in warhammer since people not familiar with the series aren't used to heavily modding/overhauling the game for best experience. They are far from the "majority" of player and even if there were a lot of them, this does not make them right given they just play a vastly inferior version of the game. As for your claim that mods are to "tailor the game to how you want it", its not wrong, however there are multiple overhauls changing the gameplay to certain ends (some people prefer SFO over Radious), but Radious is most certainly the one that simply makes the game more fun, balanced, diverse, content filled and superior (in various ways, such as AI) to vanilla. Its vanilla upgraded without the extreme changes to the overall gameplay such as with SFO. You are not having a "preference" when you play vanilla, you are using an inferior product. Sure some people like their dollarama shampoos but that doesn't mean that there isn't anything straight up objectively better in (sometimes) every way, or at least a few ways.

Speaking of the TW forums, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that only vanilla players would be posting about balance players, there is no reason for any mod user to talk about balance on there, so obviously you would see nobody talking about something they would not talk about. Same things about this forum and general talk of the game. Nobody would be talking about overhauls or their balance in a place for vanilla discussions. Every mod/overhaul has their own forum/discord/site/etc to discuss whatever needs to be discussed there. Though there are plenty of discussions about the game on here that include mods. Its hard to find anyone who's not at least using recruit defeated legendary lords mod, or mixer with all the additional factions for the game which are equivalent to a dozen dlc's from CA.
P.S. spending 2k on warhammer 3 does not make you familiar with total war, its like 1 of their 15 games. You are not even very familiar with the TW warhammer games if you haven't played the previous ones.
Question: Did you play skyrim unmodded too? It sure would explain a lot...
Last edited by Avallac; Nov 23, 2024 @ 9:00pm
AstroMonkey Nov 23, 2024 @ 11:22pm 
I would like to state that i understand chaos loves melee, but in my sentence i state my melee attack and defense(and also i try to sic AP units on high armor targets) are superior to the enemy, nurgle specifically because khorne chaoes is plain better than my units ( i've leartn to head north to behead valkia as soon as praag is mine to avoid her broken t3-4 army later).

I also use missile but the problem is that they are only good early on.

Also yesterday while defending from a siege a SINGLE renowned chaos dwarf unit of infantry mopped the floor against TEN of my units( a mix of kossars and armored kossars) while my TWO regiments of renown , the tzar and armored renown regiments, got deleted.

So while the ai get no bonuses i still don't understand why my units are made of paper.

Also no matter what i get swarmed by ogres to the sw, chaos and chaos dwarves everywhere else while my allies seem to not understand how to win a single battle( usually empire, dwarves and konstaltyn)
Last edited by AstroMonkey; Nov 23, 2024 @ 11:23pm
Metal Nov 24, 2024 @ 12:26am 
When you see Chaos. Think twice of attacking them. If they come after you. Think twice what/how to do.

You gonna get hammered.

This is for new players. Not for players with exp.
Enelith Nov 24, 2024 @ 1:31am 
Originally posted by Avallac:
what you did wrong is play the game vanilla. Nobody that is familiar with Total War series plays the game unmodded and especially without a major overhaul.

You lost all credibility to me right here.

Generally speaking, you'd use a major overhaul mod either bcs u know how to play the game and want something new, or you don't know how to play the game and depend on those mod to achieve something.
As OP is still in the learning curve (which is cool imo), using those mods won't help him to address his issues, since it would be a different game.
Adamsevs Nov 24, 2024 @ 2:02am 
Originally posted by Enelith:
Originally posted by Avallac:
what you did wrong is play the game vanilla. Nobody that is familiar with Total War series plays the game unmodded and especially without a major overhaul.

You lost all credibility to me right here.

Generally speaking, you'd use a major overhaul mod either bcs u know how to play the game and want something new, or you don't know how to play the game and depend on those mod to achieve something.
As OP is still in the learning curve (which is cool imo), using those mods won't help him to address his issues, since it would be a different game.

This.
You adds spices once you know how the dish taste, you adds mods once you get how is the base game to your preferences.

And for Kislev units, their sleds and bear cavalry provides great values on the battlefield, the light sleds can skirmishes easily allowing you to shoot enemy characters early on, heavy sleds could too despite their lower speed and are better at charging enemies lines
Bear cavalry eats most units that isn't high tiers anti large or very tough characters

Also chaos tends to have slower units too, bringing little groms woud do wonders on their chosens for instance, streltsi exists too to ends any large units

And lastly, the combination of tech buffs, red lines buff from lords skill tree and chevrons boosts significantly units
pascal.difolco Nov 24, 2024 @ 3:12am 
WoC are melee beasts.. so just shoot them!
And if you really struggle at VH/VH difficulty crank the difficulty down a notch or two, you don't have to punish yourself, it's a game
Last edited by pascal.difolco; Nov 24, 2024 @ 3:15am
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Date Posted: Nov 23, 2024 @ 3:14pm
Posts: 67