Why Gnoblars ( Spear Infantry) still no anti-large same as rework goblins?

[Handsome Hell]

same question

[MadArtillery]

Publicado originalmente por ChaosKhan:

Publicado originalmente por MadArtillery:

Unbreakable is amaizing and you won't have to deal with many LoS issues in checkerboards and incredibly you can do things like give orders to units. I know mind blowing, work them to near death and cycle them out as needed. Far better to choose when a unit withdraws and cycle in replacements rather then them running with often far too much health left to be spent. Of course your the guy who thought playing Ogres in battle was torture so perhaps you should try some different strategies using units that up instead of get punched down.

Considering that you are trying on the trapper hill here for no reason, I already expected you to not know some mechanics well, so here a couple explanations:
1. When units "flee", they have completely different AI behaviour than when you try to pull them out manually. AND the AI usually stops chasing the unit and attacks something different. AND collision works completely different, that makes fleeing units clip through other units easier.

2. Chessboard formation is something a lot of wannabe pros like you bring up, but this formation has limits. The most important limit is, that it's weak against ranged factions. So yes, you can use it against VCs, it also works against WoC, but the formation is only as strong as your ranged and relies on the enemy not having much ranged. Trappers are garbage tier ranged, with low range, low dmg and wonky line of sight. You can do chessboard with them, but trash remains trash, even if put into chessboard formation. It's more viable to instead flank the enemy with a second stack of normal gnoblars, do a clean encirclement wipe and not lose even a single unit in the process, because they just flee when low instead of gambling on the AI not wiping your units out when you try to cycle them. Even worse for trappers: You could instead put basic gnoblars into chessboard and have a couple leadbelcher units provide proper fire support for the same price and while having the same army size.

Yes, playing Ogres is torture, but that's because I simply dislike the way they are designed now. Just because I dislike something though doesn't mean, that I don't understand how it works. WH3 isn't that hard of a game and some units/lords/heroes/factions are simply worse than others. That's why balance and tier lists exist.

You're playing ogres why are you worried about ranged units you brought this up in the other thread and it's just silly. Your mass, your full of fast, the ai is brainless and has ranged on skirmish formation. You don't even need to make contact to turn off multiple ranged units with a single unit, easily clumping them so they block LoS. Surely you can figure out how to turn a ranged line off with pathetic ease.

As for fleeing just throw the next wave in to cover their retreat, the same reason I use dogs with cav so the cav can retreat in factions that have access to both, use your units to support eachother. Then have the injured squad fight the entire rest of the battle. You can actively take actions to do things, especially when they never stop responding to orders.

Seriously just hearing the idea of ranged armies from the ai mattering as if ranged factions aren't what the ai is the absolute worst at out of everything is just sad, especially as ogres of all factions. The ai loves blocking LoS, clumping on itself, and running away instead of ever shooting. Someday I hope they turn off skirmish mode for ai.

[ChaosKhan]

Publicado originalmente por MadArtillery:

You're playing ogres why are you worried about ranged units you brought this up in the other thread and it's just silly. You mass, your full of fast, the ai is brainless and has ranged on skirmish formation. You don't even need to make contact to turn off multiple ranged units. Surely you can figure out how to turn a ranged line off with pathetic ease.

As for fleeing just throw the next wave in to cover their retreat, the same reason I use dogs with cav so the cav can retreat in factions that have access to both, use your units to support eachother. Then have the injured squad fight the entire rest of the battle. You can actively take actions to do things, especially when they never stop responding to orders.

Seriously just hearing the idea of ranged armies from the ai mattering as if ranged factions aren't what the ai is the absolute worst at out of everything is just sad, especially as ogres of all factions.

Dogs, cav... with Ogres? What?

Yeah, we are done. Before it evolves into a discussion about how trappers are suddenly in need to use sabretusks so you can somehow cheese the AI into not shooting them, I'd say I've brought enough evidence and obvious points as to why basic gnoblars are the better unit. Ogre players can just try both and decide themselves.

Stay and die on the trapper hill for as long as you like. Minmaxing isn't for everyone after all. I am glad if you have fun with the unit.

[MadArtillery]

Publicado originalmente por ChaosKhan:

Publicado originalmente por MadArtillery:

You're playing ogres why are you worried about ranged units you brought this up in the other thread and it's just silly. You mass, your full of fast, the ai is brainless and has ranged on skirmish formation. You don't even need to make contact to turn off multiple ranged units. Surely you can figure out how to turn a ranged line off with pathetic ease.

As for fleeing just throw the next wave in to cover their retreat, the same reason I use dogs with cav so the cav can retreat in factions that have access to both, use your units to support eachother. Then have the injured squad fight the entire rest of the battle. You can actively take actions to do things, especially when they never stop responding to orders.

Seriously just hearing the idea of ranged armies from the ai mattering as if ranged factions aren't what the ai is the absolute worst at out of everything is just sad, especially as ogres of all factions.

Dogs, cav... with Ogres? What?

Yeah, we are done. Before it evolves into a discussion about how trappers are suddenly in need to use sabretusks so you can somehow cheese the AI into not shooting them, I'd say I've brought enough evidence and obvious points as to why basic gnoblars are the better unit. Ogre players can just try both and decide themselves. You'll want to level up the hunters anyway and can always respec.

Stay and die on the trapper hill for as long as you like. Minmaxing isn't for everyone after all.

Yes I used an example from another faction for how to use units together to do things more effectively. Though it's not like ogres lack cav or speedy high mass options. Even 2 bulls can shutdown an entire ranged line. Not actually much difference for ogres above average speeds and high charge bonus, not exceptional but flexible enough to do it if needed. Saber tusks are also pretty good, and can stack upkeep reductions if you are worried about something costing anything though not great for skirmish dancing.

Tactical flexibility is a good thing, you can do things like use strategy and tactics with such things. It's fun to click buttons and do things like think and multitask. 1 or 2 units that offer options can vastly change how battles play out. Ogres if anything excell at tactical flexibility. Many units able to fulfill additional roles as needed. Probably why you hate them.

[Aleera]

Publicado originalmente por Zeek:

People use gnoblars?

Only in pvp.

If you use them in pve, are you even playing Ogre's?

[DarkFenix]

Publicado originalmente por Rianne:

Publicado originalmente por Zeek:

People use gnoblars?

Only in pvp.

If you use them in pve, are you even playing Ogre's?

No, I'm playing as the Gnoblar Kingdoms. Fite me.

[Froz7y]

Level up your new noob lord with a regiments of cheap pitiful Gnoblar meat bags.

[Human bean]

Publicado originalmente por DarkFenix:

Publicado originalmente por Rianne:

Only in pvp.

If you use them in pve, are you even playing Ogre's?

No, I'm playing as the Gnoblar Kingdoms. Fite me.

I would give you something nice but am all out of points :/

[Zeek]

Publicado originalmente por DarkFenix:

No, I'm playing as the Gnoblar Kingdoms. Fite me.

I would legit like to have a properly fleshed out and implemented gnoblar khanate faction.

Publicado originalmente por Human bean:

I would give you something nice but am all out of points :/

I got you

[Aleera]

Publicado originalmente por DarkFenix:

No, I'm playing as the Gnoblar Kingdoms. Fite me.

Then you're not playing Ogre's are you?

Seriously, if you play normal unmodded Ogre Kingdoms as they are now and you're not focussing on the Ogre's themselves, you're simply shooting yourself in the foot.

[SBA77]

Publicado originalmente por Zeek:

People use gnoblars?

Aren't gnoblar tappers supposed to be surprisingly good? Guess this just about the basic gnoblars I suppose and not gnoblar units in general.

[Aleera]

Publicado originalmente por SBA77:

Publicado originalmente por Zeek:

People use gnoblars?

Aren't gnoblar tappers supposed to be surprisingly good? Guess this just about the basic gnoblars I suppose and not gnoblar units in general.

Only the trappers are "decent" and mostly in multiplayer.
The base melee kind might be worse then the peasant mob.

Why use a frontline or unit's to tarpit enemies when Ogre's are the strongest factions in crushing the enemy within seconds with high mass charges. They don't even care if the enemy braces. They still get 50% of their charge.

Why on gods green Earth would anyone ever think a Gnoblar in pve is worth it.

[SBA77]

Publicado originalmente por Rianne:

Publicado originalmente por SBA77:

Aren't gnoblar tappers supposed to be surprisingly good? Guess this just about the basic gnoblars I suppose and not gnoblar units in general.

Only the trappers are "decent" and mostly in multiplayer.
The base melee kind might be worse then the peasant mob.

That's right, I remember hearing that in a multiplayer video way back when.

[Zeek]

Publicado originalmente por Rianne:

Only the trappers are "decent" and mostly in multiplayer.
The base melee kind might be worse then the peasant mob.

Why use a frontline or unit's to tarpit enemies when Ogre's are the strongest factions in crushing the enemy within seconds with high mass charges. They don't even care if the enemy braces. They still get 50% of their charge.

Why on gods green Earth would anyone ever think a Gnoblar in pve is worth it.

I don't even use trappers beyond the ones you start with, and I quickly replace them with Bulls, which are infinitely better.