Flying Units / Commanders

[EchoSON]

Dumbest decision ever to prevent them taking points during a siege
My demon Prince can't capture a gate? Logic

I can only suspend my disbelief so much, I have 6 squads and a demon prince on a point, they should be able to take it - but no

Luckily there is a mod which fixes it
Air Units having the benefit of passing walls and barricades? Don't be silly XD

[Zeek]

It's to prevent intentionally trivializing sieges, which is exactly what you're trying to do.

Not that I blame you, I hate them too.

[Power and Wealth]

Some flying units have a toggle switch which forces the unit onto the ground, maybe that allows the unit to capture points?

[EchoSON]

Originally posted by Zeek:

It's to prevent intentionally trivializing sieges, which is exactly what you're trying to do.

Not that I blame you, I hate them too.

I know why they did it - and it's a stupid decision
There's more creative and intelligent ways of making that Strategy less appealing - which don't completely ignore common sense

[EchoSON]

Originally posted by Archaos the Mad Bro:

Some flying units have a toggle switch which forces the unit onto the ground, maybe that allows the unit to capture points?

It doesn't no , doesn't matter whether they're actually flying or not

[dulany67]

I tend to agree, but I mod sieges and part of that is nullifying the other capture points that can lead to an abrupt victory or loss.

[Zeek]

Originally posted by dulany67:

I tend to agree, but I mod sieges and part of that is nullifying the other capture points that can lead to an abrupt victory or loss.

What mods are using?

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by EchoSON:

Originally posted by Zeek:

It's to prevent intentionally trivializing sieges, which is exactly what you're trying to do.

Not that I blame you, I hate them too.

I know why they did it - and it's a stupid decision
There's more creative and intelligent ways of making that Strategy less appealing - which don't completely ignore common sense

I am interested in what ways you are thinking of. Because having a bunch of flying units fly past all the defenders to cap the main area and win sounds like a big issue.

[EchoSON]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Originally posted by EchoSON:

I know why they did it - and it's a stupid decision
There's more creative and intelligent ways of making that Strategy less appealing - which don't completely ignore common sense

I am interested in what ways you are thinking of. Because having a bunch of flying units fly past all the defenders to cap the main area and win sounds like a big issue.

- Capture rate Nerf for flying units (lets say 80% slower) , to allow time for Ai response
- Ai which 'will' go and attend to flying invaders (they're not very good at it right now)
- Ai which 'does' account for flying Units by dividing forces (by having a backline) - instead of planting every Unit next to 1 gate.

Flying pass defenders, that's kind of the whole nature of Air strikes - but the lack of defending is nothing to do with them being flown over , that's just poor design.

There are other ways to fix it - but would require more redesign

Like... you put barricades in the street to slow down assaults? , okay - to counter play that use air Units < which can also be counter played

Instead of balancing and allowing for counter play - it completely removes the benefit of having them, I'd be much better off dropping my tactical squishy flying units and getting a bunch of OP titan type units to roll over everything including gates ...

Stupid

[MadArtillery]

I think flyers being able to cap would be 100% way too busted. It's already easy to zero kill free win these garbage siege maps, that would just be a whole new level.

[EchoSON]

Originally posted by MadArtillery:

I think flyers being able to cap would be 100% way too busted

By design flaw - not by function , it's only busted because of ♥♥♥♥♥♥ game design

The mod exists anyway , problem solved - though it would still be better if Ai utilised better unit placement and were more reactive to threats inside their walls.

Also, it's not OP if everyone can do it - but if the Ai tried capturing with Flying units we would actually send units to the backline... as it should be

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by EchoSON:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

I am interested in what ways you are thinking of. Because having a bunch of flying units fly past all the defenders to cap the main area and win sounds like a big issue.

- Capture rate Nerf for flying units (lets say 80% slower) , to allow time for Ai response
- Ai which 'will' go and attend to flying invaders (they're not very good at it right now)
- Ai which 'does' account for flying Units by dividing forces (by having a backline) - instead of planting every Unit next to 1 gate.

Flying pass defenders, that's kid of the whole nature of Air strikes - but the lack of defending is nothing to do with them being flown over , that's just poor design.

There are other ways to fix it - but would require more redesign

Like... you put barricades in the street to slow down assaults? , okay - to counter play that use air Units < which can also be counter played

Instead of balancing and allowing for counter play - it completely removes the benefit of having them, I'd be much better off dropping my tactical squishy flying units and getting a bunch of OP titan type units to roll over everything including gates ...

Stupid

1) Would not make a difference if you come in with 5-6 flying units. They will cap the main point before anyone can do anything about it.
If you make the capture rate so slow that infantry can reach you in time, then your Demon Prince that you were talking about will capture the gate so slowly it would be faster to simply break it down by force.

2) Again, does not matter, if the AI is mostly infantry(as is usually the case with garrisons), as they will simply not be able to get there in time to do anything about it.

3) If the AI splits up its forces to accomodate any fliers going for a cap, you have just made the battle at the gates that much easier, since your flying units will just consolidate there instead.


The advantage of flying units in the current siege system should be obvious.
You get to clear out the walls, making your ground assault go smoother. You can also with ease make a "false flank" scenario, where you deploy fliers at one side and ground forces at another. The AI will respond by deploying defenders at both locations. You can then move your fliers to the other forces, overwhelming that position and leaving the units that were positioned to "defend" against your fliers isolated with noone to fight for several minutes.
Fliers are very good in sieges currently.

[EchoSON]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Originally posted by EchoSON:

- Capture rate Nerf for flying units (lets say 80% slower) , to allow time for Ai response
- Ai which 'will' go and attend to flying invaders (they're not very good at it right now)
- Ai which 'does' account for flying Units by dividing forces (by having a backline) - instead of planting every Unit next to 1 gate.

Flying pass defenders, that's kid of the whole nature of Air strikes - but the lack of defending is nothing to do with them being flown over , that's just poor design.

There are other ways to fix it - but would require more redesign

Like... you put barricades in the street to slow down assaults? , okay - to counter play that use air Units < which can also be counter played

Instead of balancing and allowing for counter play - it completely removes the benefit of having them, I'd be much better off dropping my tactical squishy flying units and getting a bunch of OP titan type units to roll over everything including gates ...

Stupid

1) Would not make a difference if you come in with 5-6 flying units. They will cap the main point before anyone can do anything about it.
If you make the capture rate so slow that infantry can reach you in time, then your Demon Prince that you were talking about will capture the gate so slowly it would be faster to simply break it down by force.

2) Again, does not matter, if the AI is mostly infantry(as is usually the case with garrisons), as they will simply not be able to get there in time to do anything about it.

3) If the AI splits up its forces to accomodate any fliers going for a cap, you have just made the battle at the gates that much easier, since your flying units will just consolidate there instead.


The advantage of flying units in the current siege system should be obvious.
You get to clear out the walls, making your ground assault go smoother. You can also with ease make a "false flank" scenario, where you deploy fliers at one side and ground forces at another. The AI will respond by deploying defenders at both locations. You can then move your fliers to the other forces, overwhelming that position and leaving the units that were positioned to "defend" against your fliers isolated with noone to fight for several minutes.
Fliers are very good in sieges currently.

You're missing the point here
If the Ai flew into your base... could you or could you not deal with it?
Aslong as you're not completely outclassed then yes you could

So having them 'deal with it' entails the same things you would do in order to deal with it - with the same downsides.

So, 1) that is my point anyway... if I drop fliers from my roster for more heavy hitters my siege is 100% easier - bust through gates easier - kill everything easier, there's nothing smoother than completely overwhelming enemy Ai with Giants and Siege Equipment... - that's no more difficult than using fliers and attacking the backline.

Reduced capture rate for flying units can be balanced, 80% - if you're going straight to the Main capture point, is suitable, I wasn't specifically on about gates.
If you want to get into the nitty gritty of game design, Gate capture points and the main city capture point can have completely independent protections and capture rates.

2) Nonsense , Garrisons + whatever is in their defending stack = plenty of variation (there's also mods which improve both), not enough Time? with an 80% reduced capture rate? ;c

3) Nonsense again, That's just something they have to deal with (as would the player)... having 2 Units of 'whatever' and a commander back at the HQ isn't leaving their walls undefended - it's already established that whacking down gates against Ai is stupidly simple so there's no reason to clutch onto it as if it's some extremely well executed game design element.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by EchoSON:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

1) Would not make a difference if you come in with 5-6 flying units. They will cap the main point before anyone can do anything about it.
If you make the capture rate so slow that infantry can reach you in time, then your Demon Prince that you were talking about will capture the gate so slowly it would be faster to simply break it down by force.

2) Again, does not matter, if the AI is mostly infantry(as is usually the case with garrisons), as they will simply not be able to get there in time to do anything about it.

3) If the AI splits up its forces to accomodate any fliers going for a cap, you have just made the battle at the gates that much easier, since your flying units will just consolidate there instead.


The advantage of flying units in the current siege system should be obvious.
You get to clear out the walls, making your ground assault go smoother. You can also with ease make a "false flank" scenario, where you deploy fliers at one side and ground forces at another. The AI will respond by deploying defenders at both locations. You can then move your fliers to the other forces, overwhelming that position and leaving the units that were positioned to "defend" against your fliers isolated with noone to fight for several minutes.
Fliers are very good in sieges currently.

You're missing the point here
If the Ai flew into your base... could you or could you not deal with it?
Aslong as you're not completely outclassed then yes you could

So having them 'deal with it' entails the same things you would do in order to deal with it - with the same downsides.

So, 1) that is my point anyway... if I drop fliers from my roster for more heavy hitters my siege is 100% easier - bust through gates easier - kill everything easier, there's nothing smoother than completely overwhelming enemy Ai with Giants and Siege Equipment... - that's no more difficult than using fliers and attacking the backline.

Reduced capture rate for flying units can be balanced, 80% - if you're going straight to the Main capture point, is suitable, I wasn't specifically on about gates.
If you want to get into the nitty gritty of game design, Gate capture points and the main city capture point can have completely independent protections and capture rates.

2) Nonsense , Garrisons + whatever is in their defending stack = plenty of variation (there's also mods which improve both), not enough Time? with an 80% reduced capture rate? ;c

3) Nonsense again, That's just something they have to deal with (as would the player)... having 2 Units of 'whatever' and a commander back at the HQ isn't leaving their walls undefended - it's already established that whacking down gates against Ai is stupidly simple so there's no reason to clutch onto it as if it's some extremely well executed game design element.

The problem is not what the AI does. The issue is what the player can do to trivialize game mechanics. If you can get 5-6 flying units and win every siege in less than 4 minutes because of it, that is a problem.

But yes, I can deal with AI units trying to get my home objective. It would just require me to abandon the outer walls and instead fortify around the inner objectives if they bring a lot of fliers. I fail to see how that would improve overall gameplay though.

In addition, unless forced through specific scripts, the AI will most likely never use the flying units that way. They will more than likely use them as they do now, or fly around and gang up on lone units or some of the undefended support objectives.
The point here is that the player will be able to vastly exploit flying units in sieges, if flying units were capable of taking objectives, while at the same time make for a lesser experience for the player in a defensive siege, because now they have to run around and play wack-a-mole.
Your suggestion does not improve gameplay in any way.


About your responses:
1) If you think fliers are bad in sieges and prefer the slower, big monsters, then I think I know what your issue is.
Your other problem is that you want fliers to be able to "back door" the fortifications and defensive lines, winning battles without engaging the majority of the opposing forces. But that does not make for more engaging gameplay, when you can basically skip most of the battle. Not to mention, far from all factions are even capable of fielding an air force in the first place, so your suggestion would simply give some factions a distinct advantage.

2) Not nonsense. If I normally take an objective point with 5 units in about 15 seconds, increasing the timer to 75 seconds just means I will take 2 more units to get it below 60 seconds again. No infantry can reach me in time if they have to run through the streets from the wall.
Look at the average garrison and count the number of infantry units(melee and ranged) compared to cavalry and other, faster units. Roughly 70% or more is infantry. On top of that, the AI will not respond to your flying incursion until you start capturing a point or land and engage ground units(as they can not interact with them in the air anyway, unless ranged or flying themselves), meaning even cavalry will have to spend a fairly long time to get from their defensive postion near the walls to the main objective(depending on map type, it can take up towards a minute even for cavalry). And depending on how it is coded, it might even lead to the AI completely abandoning their defensive positions on the wall to go chase after flying units that they can not catch, again making for an easy victory.
Mods are not an argument when talking about core game mechanics and balance changes. You are basically asking the Devs to change something fundamental, and then you add further change with mods. In that case, simply make those changes yourself to begin with.

3) I would like to see your commander and 2 units of "what ever" deal with 2-3 Vargheist, a Vampire Lord on a Zombie Dragon and a Vampire hero on a Winged Nightmare(very typical mid-to-late game setup for VC). They completely murder that little defensive force on the point. Being able to capture the point afterwards just gives me more of an incentive to do so. Several factions are capable of fielding a powerful airforce, while others have no such thing.




If you want "sneaky capture", get some stalkers. Deploy them in an area away from your main army, crawl over the wall and open the gate. Have your other fast elements reposition to back them up. The difference between this and have fliers do it, is effort and time.

[MadArtillery]

Even if the ai could also back cap with flyers just like the player in this hypothetical terrible future how exactly is any of this an improvement on the current poor seige mechanics. Legitimately sounds like at best it would make something already bad worse which is an impressively terrible suggestion. Ooh wackamole, exciting... Not.

Just no, terrible and poorly thought out suggestion that should stay out of the game.

[EchoSON]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Originally posted by EchoSON:

You're missing the point here
If the Ai flew into your base... could you or could you not deal with it?
Aslong as you're not completely outclassed then yes you could

So having them 'deal with it' entails the same things you would do in order to deal with it - with the same downsides.

So, 1) that is my point anyway... if I drop fliers from my roster for more heavy hitters my siege is 100% easier - bust through gates easier - kill everything easier, there's nothing smoother than completely overwhelming enemy Ai with Giants and Siege Equipment... - that's no more difficult than using fliers and attacking the backline.

Reduced capture rate for flying units can be balanced, 80% - if you're going straight to the Main capture point, is suitable, I wasn't specifically on about gates.
If you want to get into the nitty gritty of game design, Gate capture points and the main city capture point can have completely independent protections and capture rates.

2) Nonsense , Garrisons + whatever is in their defending stack = plenty of variation (there's also mods which improve both), not enough Time? with an 80% reduced capture rate? ;c

3) Nonsense again, That's just something they have to deal with (as would the player)... having 2 Units of 'whatever' and a commander back at the HQ isn't leaving their walls undefended - it's already established that whacking down gates against Ai is stupidly simple so there's no reason to clutch onto it as if it's some extremely well executed game design element.

The problem is not what the AI does. The issue is what the player can do to trivialize game mechanics. If you can get 5-6 flying units and win every siege in less than 4 minutes because of it, that is a problem.

But yes, I can deal with AI units trying to get my home objective. It would just require me to abandon the outer walls and instead fortify around the inner objectives if they bring a lot of fliers. I fail to see how that would improve overall gameplay though.

In addition, unless forced through specific scripts, the AI will most likely never use the flying units that way. They will more than likely use them as they do now, or fly around and gang up on lone units or some of the undefended support objectives.
The point here is that the player will be able to vastly exploit flying units in sieges, if flying units were capable of taking objectives, while at the same time make for a lesser experience for the player in a defensive siege, because now they have to run around and play wack-a-mole.
Your suggestion does not improve gameplay in any way.


About your responses:
1) If you think fliers are bad in sieges and prefer the slower, big monsters, then I think I know what your issue is.
Your other problem is that you want fliers to be able to "back door" the fortifications and defensive lines, winning battles without engaging the majority of the opposing forces. But that does not make for more engaging gameplay, when you can basically skip most of the battle. Not to mention, far from all factions are even capable of fielding an air force in the first place, so your suggestion would simply give some factions a distinct advantage.

2) Not nonsense. If I normally take an objective point with 5 units in about 15 seconds, increasing the timer to 75 seconds just means I will take 2 more units to get it below 60 seconds again. No infantry can reach me in time if they have to run through the streets from the wall.
Look at the average garrison and count the number of infantry units(melee and ranged) compared to cavalry and other, faster units. Roughly 70% or more is infantry. On top of that, the AI will not respond to your flying incursion until you start capturing a point or land and engage ground units(as they can not interact with them in the air anyway, unless ranged or flying themselves), meaning even cavalry will have to spend a fairly long time to get from their defensive postion near the walls to the main objective(depending on map type, it can take up towards a minute even for cavalry). And depending on how it is coded, it might even lead to the AI completely abandoning their defensive positions on the wall to go chase after flying units that they can not catch, again making for an easy victory.
Mods are not an argument when talking about core game mechanics and balance changes. You are basically asking the Devs to change something fundamental, and then you add further change with mods. In that case, simply make those changes yourself to begin with.

3) I would like to see your commander and 2 units of "what ever" deal with 2-3 Vargheist, a Vampire Lord on a Zombie Dragon and a Vampire hero on a Winged Nightmare(very typical mid-to-late game setup for VC). They completely murder that little defensive force on the point. Being able to capture the point afterwards just gives me more of an incentive to do so. Several factions are capable of fielding a powerful airforce, while others have no such thing.




If you want "sneaky capture", get some stalkers. Deploy them in an area away from your main army, crawl over the wall and open the gate. Have your other fast elements reposition to back them up. The difference between this and have fliers do it, is effort and time.

Originally posted by MadArtillery:

Even if the ai could also back cap like with flyers just like the player in this hypothetical terrible future how exactly is any of this an improvement on the current poor seige mechanics. Legitimately sounds like at best it would make something already bad worse which is an impressively terrible suggestion. Ooh wackamole, exciting... Not.

Just no, terrible and poorly thought out suggestion that should stay out of the game.

Poo and poo , too uneducated to make me waste my time with further response

You get poo



PS I didn't just ignore everything that was said, I read it, and it's poo.