Chaos is a thematic mess at this point (WoC, DoC, and Monogods)

[Lupara]

Remember when the Champions of Chaos DLC came out?
When CA was questioned on why they were putting those 4 new LLs in the WoC roster vs. their respective Monogod rosters they literally had no good answer.
Then the community played defense for them with this whole "Oh, only TRUE demons can be monogod LLs -- these are all previous humans, so they belong in WoC" completely ignoring the fact Belakor was also in the WoC roster despite being the literal god of demons.

What exactly is the thematic different between a Valkia campaign vs a Khorne campaign (besides the actual mechanics)?
Oh, "Demons" you might say? After all, Skarbrand can recruit and field more demons from round 1.
Ok cool. So now what's the difference between Belakor and Demons of Chaos Daniel (again, besides the campaign mechanics)?

How about a demon-focused Festus army vs a chaos-warrior focused Ku'Gath army??

See what I mean? It's a crappy look.

Things get even stinkier when trying to explain to new players the differences between Belakor vs. Everchosen vs. Daniel vs. Monogods. Wtf is with all these rosters?
Just combine the ♥♥♥♥.

[IonizedMercury]

Blame GW for creating this mess in WHFB in the first place, Daemons should have never been something separate from the warriors and all be slammed together. Mixed daemon/mortal lists is what they should have done when they first split Chaos up in sixth edition.

Glad AoS has fixed this and 40k is on the way there.

[Hex]

Uhh Be'lakor used to be mortal, he was just the first mortal to be turned into a demon prince. He also isn't a god of anything, no idea where you got that notion from.

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Blame GW for creating this mess in WHFB in the first place, Daemons should have never been something separate from the warriors and all be slammed together. Mixed daemon/mortal lists is what they should have done when they first split Chaos up in sixth edition.

Glad AoS has fixed this and 40k is on the way there.

AoS was the dumbest ♥♥♥♥ GW ever did, even GW knows it was a mistake, that's why they are bringing the old world back.

[Enelith]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Blame GW for creating this mess in WHFB in the first place, Daemons should have never been something separate from the warriors and all be slammed together. Mixed daemon/mortal lists is what they should have done when they first split Chaos up in sixth edition.

On the opposite, I wished they made it very separated such as WoC's units couldn't be recruited by Monogod faction, and vice versa (Chaos gifts to WoC are different though, it's not recruiting, it's a gift), giving a clear distinction (similar to Norsca / WoC : you're both Chaos bad guys, but there's a difference).
Therefore, if you played Festus, you'd played ONLY Festus, and playing Ku'gath, you'd play as Ku'gath (and not a Ku'gath-festus-ish things as WoC's units are way too strong as they are right now compared to daemons units...)

Edit :
Thus, SoC's and ToD's additions would only be available to Monogods faction (WoC got their turn with CoC's)

[Reaver79]

Originally posted by Hex:

Uhh Be'lakor used to be mortal, he was just the first mortal to be turned into a demon prince. He also isn't a god of anything, no idea where you got that notion from.

Be'lakor is the showdow lord, he is worshipped as a god by some cultists as a god.. But a god of daemons no sir..

[Lupara]

Originally posted by Reaver79:

Originally posted by Hex:

Uhh Be'lakor used to be mortal, he was just the first mortal to be turned into a demon prince. He also isn't a god of anything, no idea where you got that notion from.

Be'lakor is the showdow lord, he is worshipped as a god by some cultists as a god.. But a god of daemons no sir..

Great. Now people will get caught up on this one point while ignoring everything else around my thread

[Ashardalon]

belakor is not a god, just the first demonprince
wich really means nothing in the warp

and look how you need to specify that you put in extra effort to make the demon army woc focussed and the woc army demon focussed
because it takes effort to make the army like that
i can make the empire play like orcs, if you ignore the campaign mechanics, that still doesnt make them orcs

first demonprince, the herald of the endtimes, nobody, monogods isnt a person in the game but there are greater demons who are greater demons
maybe your just bad at explaining things to your friends

do agree with elenith that demons should be a lot stronger then mortals, wich they currently arnt

[Amphibian Artillery]

The only issue I have is Be'lakor and Azazel being WoC LLs, the rest I'm fine with. The reason CA made Be'lakor WoC is because the Daemon of Chaos faction doesn't have any mechanics outside of Daniels Body Parts and Daemonic Glory to unlock them and since Be'lakor is a set character you can't customize the mechanic doesn't work for him. CA didn't have the budget to rework the DoC from the ground up so they just placed Be'lakor in the next best faction WoC.

Azazel was a stupid choice on their part. CA messed up by making Sigvald a LL back in game 1 since he was the champion of slaanesh alongside Valkia, Vilitch, and Festus being champions for their respective gods. But, since he was already in they had to make a different character the Slaanesh rep in the DLC. Dechala would have been better since she is a mortal and not a daemon prince like Azazel. Honestly CA could have made Azazel a Slaanesh Lord while still playing into the narrative and upgrade Sigvald into the Slaanesh WoC campaign. Hell they could of made the 4 LL of the DLC Crom the Conqueror as an undivided LL and upgrading Sigvald to the Slaanesh Lord.

I don't mind them making these new Mono-God LLs as the mortal characters since there aren't many Daemon choices for them. Khorne has Skarbrand and U'zhul the Skulltaker, Nurgle has Ku'gath and Epidemius, Tzeentch has Kairos, the Changeling, and the Blue Scribes, and Slaanesh has N'kari, Azazel, and the Masque of Slaanesh. As you can see these races would be quite small without mortals especially Slaanesh since they gave Azazel to WoC and Tzeentch had the Blue Scribes turned into a LH.

[Zav]

My only real issue is that WoC are really boring in IE without some mechanic overhaul. At least make fortresses worthwhile or give some bonus

[Tr4cker0]

Originally posted by Ashardalon:

belakor is not a god, just the first demonprince
wich really means nothing in the warp

and look how you need to specify that you put in extra effort to make the demon army woc focussed and the woc army demon focussed
because it takes effort to make the army like that
i can make the empire play like orcs, if you ignore the campaign mechanics, that still doesnt make them orcs

first demonprince, the herald of the endtimes, nobody, monogods isnt a person in the game but there are greater demons who are greater demons
maybe your just bad at explaining things to your friends

do agree with elenith that demons should be a lot stronger then mortals, wich they currently arnt

We can justify this by the fact that Daemons are weaken when they are in the living world so they might be stronger in their realm, they are not at home here.

[PureH]

I dont agree its a mess, but i think its somewhat sloppy. I didn't actually expect tamukarn for Nurgle, instead expecting epidemius as the LL for the DLC, as Tamukarn is a WoC character. I dont really mind though as lover of all things Chaos, the theme is still their just the lines of what is a WoC character and what is a monogod character are extremely blurred

[Isaac]

The Line between the chaos factions should definetly be a lot clearer. right now, if you play one chaos factions, you have acces to most units all the chaos factions have, which is really weird.
and for the love of god, stop giving the beastmen every new unit. they are allready way too strong

[Zeek]

Chaos has been a thematic mess for decades now on the tabletop side, which is where CA is basing factions from for the most part.

Age of Sigmar did it right though, and I'm glad CA took the cue from there when they did the mono-god factions. Each god should have a unique mix of daemon/mortal/other solely dedicated to that god.

Regarding the god-dedicated Warrior of Chaos characters, CA made a blog post about why they did what they did, and it basically came down to adding flavor to WoC while avoiding significant overlaps by adding them to the mono-god factions. Plus, this is a faction where you are able to mix different god-dedicated units via the marks.

I personally don't really have a problem with this, but it does produce some questions sometimes.

Edit:

Originally posted by Swampo:

Just combine the ♥♥♥♥.

That's actually how it was waaaaaay back in the day. Beastmen, Warriors, Daemons, all in one faction. They split it because the faction itself got too huge, which is a good thing. The thing that was always missing was proper mono-god factions.

[Funky Monk]

First of all, Be'lakor is no God of daemons, he is no god whatsoever. Thematically Be'lakor being a WoC makes more sense since he uses mortals more than he does daemons.

As for the reason of the CoC LL's being WoC lords, it's very simple really. It was to give WoC monogod experiences which focuses more on the mortals rather than the daemons. This also grearly expands the pool of LL's for WoC and makes campaigns such as Archaon much more interesting.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by Enelith:

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Blame GW for creating this mess in WHFB in the first place, Daemons should have never been something separate from the warriors and all be slammed together. Mixed daemon/mortal lists is what they should have done when they first split Chaos up in sixth edition.

On the opposite, I wished they made it very separated such as WoC's units couldn't be recruited by Monogod faction, and vice versa (Chaos gifts to WoC are different though, it's not recruiting, it's a gift), giving a clear distinction (similar to Norsca / WoC : you're both Chaos bad guys, but there's a difference).
Therefore, if you played Festus, you'd played ONLY Festus, and playing Ku'gath, you'd play as Ku'gath (and not a Ku'gath-festus-ish things as WoC's units are way too strong as they are right now compared to daemons units...)

Edit :
Thus, SoC's and ToD's additions would only be available to Monogods faction (WoC got their turn with CoC's)

Just like how AoS does it then?

You have the monogod lists that all have their own unique mortal units and daemons from their patron deity and you have Slaves to Darkness which are all the Chaos Warriors but with only undivided daemons save for marked Daemon Princes.

[Hex]

Originally posted by Reaver79:

Originally posted by Hex:

Uhh Be'lakor used to be mortal, he was just the first mortal to be turned into a demon prince. He also isn't a god of anything, no idea where you got that notion from.

Be'lakor is the showdow lord, he is worshipped as a god by some cultists as a god.. But a god of daemons no sir..

Something being worshiped as a god does not make them a god, it's not that simple.

The factions are separate because they all have their own very unique things. Sure, they should slap all demons under deamons of chaos, but that wouldn't really change anything.