Best use of each empire cavalry outside of demigryph knights?

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

I swear at this point empire has more variety of cavalry than even Bretonnia at this point, can you guys help break down each one and if they do have a use or if some are just straight upgrades compared to others (besides obvious empire knights).

[SarmatII]

Empire Cav is basically shock cav. No AP, high charge bonus. Not intended for prolong fights.

Whilst Demi have the AP & mass to make them very effective at cycle charging.

The new Rose knights are definitely not line holders like some ppl seem to be confused about. Look at Questing Knights with high melee def, you leave them in vs elite infantry they still get chewed up due to large model being surrounded by multiple infantry hitting them from flanks. A very inefficient way to use expensive cav.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by SarmatII:

Empire Cav is basically shock cav. No AP, high charge bonus. Not intended for prolong fights.

Whilst Demi have the AP & mass to make them very effective at cycle charging.

The new Rose knights are definitely not line holders like some ppl seem to be confused about. Look at Questing Knights with high melee def, you leave them in vs elite infantry they still get chewed up due to large model being surrounded by multiple infantry hitting them from flanks. A very inefficient way to use expensive cav.

I don't plan on using them as line holders no, I don't think that really exists right? Though do note the new knights do have 50 melee defense compared to questing knights.

Basically in a mid game with Karl and I'm not feeling that a artillery + shot army style is working with him, the way I envision him with his skill line buffs is more great swords mass with cavalry support, maybe different kinds of each for different jobs.

Example though knights of the everlasting light just seem like the best actual shock cavalry compared to the rest, they have magic attacks which is huge.

Stubborn bulls I'm not sure on, they have higher armor piercing then the rose knights but lower defense too, and the rose already have decent ap on them already so those might not be that good.

[zefyris]

Some cav do have better melee stats and staying power in melee than regular shock cav, and comparitively way lower charge bonuses.
Compare
for
- Bretonnia : Questing Knights to other knights
- WoC : Regular chaos knights compared to chaos knights (lance)
- Vampire Counts : Black Knights compared to Black Knights (Lance & barding)
- Empire: Knights of the Black Rose compared to the other Empire knights (half the charge bonus, but almost twice the MD )

There are a few others out there, some of them are clearly better at that job than others.
Also, cavalry stays cavalry. Sure, those few I listed have quite the higher staying power, but there's no reason not using that speed to choose the place of engagement and who you engage with them, and withdraw from the engagement if necessary, things that infantry would have a hard time to do. They replace advantageously regular infantry line holders provided you understand that and make use of it.

The Knights of the Black Rose are not shock cav, contrary to what Sarmatll said. They have terrible base charge stat and 50 base MD + immune to psychology and 120 armor + higher hp per model + bonus vs infantry helping them killing in melee (they reach 55 MD and 135 armor very easily in a few turns worth of tech upgrades too).
It's already pretty decent as a late game frontline as it is but with the buffs from the Nuln landmark they gain Iron Resolve factionwide.

That makes their individual entities impossible to kill as long as the hp of the unit is above 50%, and this is perma active. Not even a canonball can kill an entity in there as long as you keep their hp avbove 50%, and the Empire has easy access to healing if necessary. Their default immune to psychology and comparatively high leadership also ensure that they won't flee easily either.


Because both Bretonnia and the Empire lacks good infantry line holders for late game, the Questing Knights and the Knights of the Black Rose are respectively their best late game line holder and there's no real competition on that point.


The other Empire cavalry available right now are all shock cav, they just have different niche.

- Regular Empire knights are simply your first heavy cav unit and the weakest of all, you want to replace them with the other order whenever you have those available.

- Knights of Morr are a nice upgrade to regular empire knights. They cause their surrounding to become immune to psychology, so while they're not good at being line holder, having some when fighting terror inducing enemies can go a long way in helping your line to not flee. Otherwise, they're inferior to the other 2 shock cave choice below.

- Reiksguard can have devastating flanker in altdorf which makes them very juicy used as your go to default shock cav as soon as you get Aldorf to tier 4.

- Blazing Sun are excellent against anything vulnerable to fire, like undead or tree spirits. Also potential combo with other fire damage like fire mages, as they can get flammable contact effect through their buildings in Talabheim. They're definitely more niche than the Reiksguard.

... Finally, we're missing the AP variant, that should arrive with a Middenheim/Ulric themed DLC later in warhammer 3.

[SpeaksTooFast]

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

I swear at this point empire has more variety of cavalry than even Bretonnia at this point, can you guys help break down each one and if they do have a use or if some are just straight upgrades compared to others (besides obvious empire knights).

IMO there are no straight upgrades but depending on your chosen faction and how you are specking your lord they can be quite effective.

Franz benefits Reiksguard only in his army, Volkmar's faction gives many of them bonus vs infantry but that does not justify doomstacking. Their variety is good but there is no clear best option and that is a good thing.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by SpeaksTooFast:

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

I swear at this point empire has more variety of cavalry than even Bretonnia at this point, can you guys help break down each one and if they do have a use or if some are just straight upgrades compared to others (besides obvious empire knights).

IMO there are no straight upgrades but depending on your chosen faction and how you are specking your lord they can be quite effective.

Franz benefits Reiksguard only in his army, Volkmar's faction gives many of them bonus vs infantry but that does not justify doomstacking. Their variety is good but there is no clear best option and that is a good thing.

No straight upgrades? Basic Tier 2 empire knights? The middenland landmark gives them more missile block chance but that shouldn't count as a whole.

[SarmatII]

Originally posted by zefyris:

The Knights of the Black Rose are not shock cav, contrary to what Sarmatll said. They have terrible base charge stat and 50 base MD + immune to psychology and 120 armor + higher hp per model + bonus vs infantry helping them killing in melee (they reach 55 MD and 135 armor very easily in a few turns worth of tech upgrades too).
It's already pretty decent as a late game frontline as it is but with the buffs from the Nuln landmark they gain Iron Resolve factionwide.

I said Empire Cav are basically shock cav. With the caveat being the new Rose Knights, which is intended to be melee Cav, but the idea of melee Cav is flawed with how this game mechanics function.

You can have 60 MD as Cav, and elite infantry will still chrew through them if you leave them in prolong combat.

Because of this reason: large models get surrounded by infantry, each cav model fighting against 2-4 infantry model, some of which are hitting the cav unit on its flank, meaning its MD is negated by 50%.

Questing Knights have 39/40 MD, they will still get wrecked if you leave them in vs elite infantry was my example. having 50 MD on Rose Knights make little difference when they get attacked from sides.

Where QK really shine is in fact countering enemy cav & monstrous units, their MD helps a lot in 1v1 unit fights, combine with high MA, high AP.

But yes if you get the Nuln landmark bonus for Journey's End on Rose Knights, they can indeed hold the line very well. But thats due to the bonus, not specifically the Knights.

[zefyris]

Originally posted by SarmatII:

Originally posted by zefyris:

The Knights of the Black Rose are not shock cav, contrary to what Sarmatll said. They have terrible base charge stat and 50 base MD + immune to psychology and 120 armor + higher hp per model + bonus vs infantry helping them killing in melee (they reach 55 MD and 135 armor very easily in a few turns worth of tech upgrades too).
It's already pretty decent as a late game frontline as it is but with the buffs from the Nuln landmark they gain Iron Resolve factionwide.

I said Empire Cav are basically shock cav.

No. Peoples reading this, do not, ever, attempt to cycle charge a heavy cavalry unit that only has 30-40 charge bonus. You're tiring it for too little of a benefit. Regardless of what you think of the KotBR's staying power, this will never make them shock cavs as shock cavs are intended for cycle charging, and only high charge bonus cav should be cycle charged. If you want shock cavalry for the Empire, pick one of the 4 other options as you see fit, but do not pick KotBR for this, as this is not their intended purpose.
The Reiksguard is an excellent pick for late game cycle charging with non monstruous Empire cavalry, especially if you own Altdorf. Black Rose is not. They barely have more charge bonus than some mid tier Empire infantry units.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by SarmatII:

Originally posted by zefyris:

The Knights of the Black Rose are not shock cav, contrary to what Sarmatll said. They have terrible base charge stat and 50 base MD + immune to psychology and 120 armor + higher hp per model + bonus vs infantry helping them killing in melee (they reach 55 MD and 135 armor very easily in a few turns worth of tech upgrades too).
It's already pretty decent as a late game frontline as it is but with the buffs from the Nuln landmark they gain Iron Resolve factionwide.

I said Empire Cav are basically shock cav. With the caveat being the new Rose Knights, which is intended to be melee Cav, but the idea of melee Cav is flawed with how this game mechanics function.

You can have 60 MD as Cav, and elite infantry will still chrew through them if you leave them in prolong combat.

Because of this reason: large models get surrounded by infantry, each cav model fighting against 2-4 infantry model, some of which are hitting the cav unit on its flank, meaning its MD is negated by 50%.

Questing Knights have 39/40 MD, they will still get wrecked if you leave them in vs elite infantry was my example. having 50 MD on Rose Knights make little difference when they get attacked from sides.

Where QK really shine is in fact countering enemy cav & monstrous units, their MD helps a lot in 1v1 unit fights, combine with high MA, high AP.

But yes if you get the Nuln landmark bonus for Journey's End on Rose Knights, they can indeed hold the line very well. But thats due to the bonus, not specifically the Knights.

So question do you count the stubborn bulls state troops as shock cav too? I always thought they were also fighting or "heavy cav"

[zefyris]

Oh wow I forgot stubborn bulls were even a thing. They're an early AP variant that seems to be designed to have staying power but is too low on stats for really being able to do so. I honnestly never recruit them, though maybe I'm missing something about them.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by zefyris:

Originally posted by SarmatII:

I said Empire Cav are basically shock cav.

No. Peoples reading this, do not, ever, attempt to cycle charge a heavy cavalry unit that only has 30-40 charge bonus. You're tiring it for too little of a benefit. Regardless of what you think of the KotBR's staying power, this will never make them shock cavs as shock cavs are intended for cycle charging, and only high charge bonus cav should be cycle charged. If you want shock cavalry for the Empire, pick one of the 4 other options as you see fit, but do not pick KotBR for this, as this is not their intended purpose.
The Reiksguard is an excellent pick for late game cycle charging with non monstruous Empire cavalry, especially if you own Altdorf. Black Rose is not.

The Idea in my head that I'm building Karl into is an army consisting of a good 6-8 units of carroburg greatswords and a bunch of horse cavalry to support them. Reason being to me at least an army with guns/arty with Karl just doesn't feel right, I feel like with deathclaw and his dualist character I should be using a more aggressive attacking melee army.

You might call it dumb but I just feel like thats the way to go with franz with his skill line buffs.

I know I'm going with a couple rieksguard for anti large purposes but I'm not sure what else Ill go for, stubborn bulls or kngiths of the rose? Should I take some other shock calv for more damage like the everlasting light knights?

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by zefyris:

Oh wow I forgot stubborn bulls were even a thing. They're an early AP variant that seems to be designed to have staying power but is too low on stats for really being able to do so. I honnestly never recruit them, though maybe I'm missing something about them.

Yeah they have pretty low defenses but like I said I still plan on using a core line of greatswords so they don't really have to worry about holding the line.

[zefyris]

greatswords are not line holder, they're damage dealer infantry though. I know Karl Franz boost them nicely, but be wary of relying on a line of greatswords to take the main assault from the enemy. I understand that since you see Franz boost a type of cav and a type of infantry, you want to build around it by having your anvil made of greatswords and your hammer made of Reiksguard, but that's a mistake imo. If you want a dedicated line to hold the enemy as the empire, it's either spearmen at the beginning, then hallberds, Black Rose or machinery like Steam tanks.

Your greatswords should be targetting armoured infantry enemy so unless you're facing mass armoured infantry, you don't want a lot of them. And even if you were facing that, it's almost always better to pick gunpowder instead when you need lots of AP. And unless you're a god at micro, you definitely don't want a lot of shock cav either, as they need to be babysitted by cycle charging to be effective and to stay alive.

Even for Karl, i would be reluctant to have more than 6 total "Reiksguard + greatswords" in a single army. Peoples better than me at microing may have a different limit obviously, so I don't know where you stand on this; but still, more than 3 greatswords feels almost always overkill ImO.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by zefyris:

greatswords are not line holder, they're damage dealer infantry though. I know Karl Franz boost them nicely, but be wary of relying on a line of greatswords to take the main assault from the enemy. I understand that since you see Franz boost a type of cav and a type of infantry, you want to build around it by having your anvil made of greatswords and your hammer made of Reiksguard, but that's a mistake imo. If you want a dedicated line to hold the enemy as the empire, it's either spearmen at the beginning, then hallberds, Black Rose or machinery like Steam tanks.

Your greatswords should be targetting armoured infantry enemy so unless you're facing mass armoured infantry, you don't want a lot of them. And even if you were facing that, it's almost always better to pick gunpowder instead when you need lots of AP. And unless you're a god at micro, you definitely don't want a lot of shock cav either, as they need to be babysitted by cycle charging to be effective and to stay alive.

Even for Karl, i would be reluctant to have more than 6 total "Reiksguard + greatswords" in a single army. Peoples better than me at microing may have a different limit obviously, so I don't know where you stand on this; but still, more than 3 greatswords feels almost always overkill ImO.

I get that but I'm gonna give it a try anyway.

[Da_Higg]

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

The Idea in my head that I'm building Karl into is an army consisting of a good 6-8 units of carroburg greatswords and a bunch of horse cavalry to support them. Reason being to me at least an army with guns/arty with Karl just doesn't feel right, I feel like with deathclaw and his dualist character I should be using a more aggressive attacking melee army.

You might call it dumb but I just feel like thats the way to go with franz with his skill line buffs.

I know I'm going with a couple rieksguard for anti large purposes but I'm not sure what else Ill go for, stubborn bulls or kngiths of the rose? Should I take some other shock calv for more damage like the everlasting light knights?

Don't neglect your artillery/range as Karl - a volley of mortar shells into an enemy regiment first will soften them up so that your cav can clear them off the battlefield in a single charge. The Empire is at it's best when all it's various units work together.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by Da_Higg:

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

The Idea in my head that I'm building Karl into is an army consisting of a good 6-8 units of carroburg greatswords and a bunch of horse cavalry to support them. Reason being to me at least an army with guns/arty with Karl just doesn't feel right, I feel like with deathclaw and his dualist character I should be using a more aggressive attacking melee army.

You might call it dumb but I just feel like thats the way to go with franz with his skill line buffs.

I know I'm going with a couple rieksguard for anti large purposes but I'm not sure what else Ill go for, stubborn bulls or kngiths of the rose? Should I take some other shock calv for more damage like the everlasting light knights?

Don't neglect your artillery/range as Karl - a volley of mortar shells into an enemy regiment first will soften them up so that your cav can clear them off the battlefield in a single charge. The Empire is at it's best when all it's various units work together.

I find the Mortar units do damage and kill you own units FAR too often if left on their own and start firing into enemies already engaging on your front line, god knows what they'd do if you charged the enemy with a lot of cavalry while their firing.