How to build Karl's army?

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Currently in a mid-late Karl Franz Campaign, helping malakai wipe out archeon and I can't help but feel I'm building karl's army wrong.

He's got a bunch of greatswords, couple halberds, 3 ironsides, a landship and 2 of each hallblasters and helstorms along with an enginer, priest, and beasts wizard hero's.

With his unique skills with greatswords and horse cavalry I can't help but feel like I should be focusing on a group of greatswords with some of the various calv options.

If I'm going with this what would you guys suggestion filling the army with? I known I'm probably going to keep a couple rieksguard at least for anti large.

[Valthejean]

I have no idea how optimal it is, but I use entirely elector count state troops with 1-2 reiksguard in there. Carroburg Greatswords get both his bonus for Greatswords, but also his new faction skill for bonus WS per rank for state troops. Emperor's Wrath are pretty decent steam tanks, and the handgunners work pretty well. And then obviously your usual heroes like warrior priests and captains for frontline holding.

[Barry Cabbage]

I find the empires real strength to be a Pike and Shot doctrine, and while I don't play Karl instead preferring Gelt or Elspeth I have used Karl after confederating.

My current army layout is usually one of two with a few specialist armies sprinkled in.

6x Halbard, 6x Handgunner/Ironside, 2x Artillery of choice, 2x Black Rose Knights, and a selection of heros.
or
4x Halbard, 2x Great Sword, 6x Handgunner/Ironside, 2x Artillery of choice, 2x Black Rose Knights, 2x Steam Tank or Land-ship, selection of heroes.

As for heroes, I prefer Battle Priests, Light Wizards and Engineers.

I prefer Halberds over Greatswords thanks to their lower cost and increased Melee defence, the buffs given by Battle Preists or Arch Lectors go very well with them.

Given I use Pike and Shot tactics the emphasis is on my Ranged units with my Melee stuff being used to hold the enemy in place, Malleus Gaming on Youtube has covered some nice formations if you're interested.

I'm sure there are other very viable ways to do empire but this is how I like it.

[DrMeepy]

Its a good idea to build your army to fight a campaign against a specific faction. Beast wizards are terrible regardless, light/life/fire/metal would all be better choices. With Franz you should probably get a light and life mage, maybe 4 engineers, and like ten steam tanks. Probably will auto win fights with that even if you go afk

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by Barry Cabbage:

I find the empires real strength to be a Pike and Shot doctrine, and while I don't play Karl instead preferring Gelt or Elspeth I have used Karl after confederating.

My current army layout is usually one of two with a few specialist armies sprinkled in.

6x Halbard, 6x Handgunner/Ironside, 2x Artillery of choice, 2x Black Rose Knights, and a selection of heros.
or
4x Halbard, 2x Great Sword, 6x Handgunner/Ironside, 2x Artillery of choice, 2x Black Rose Knights, 2x Steam Tank or Land-ship, selection of heroes.

As for heroes, I prefer Battle Priests, Light Wizards and Engineers.

I prefer Halberds over Greatswords thanks to their lower cost and increased Melee defence, the buffs given by Battle Preists or Arch Lectors go very well with them.

Given I use Pike and Shot tactics the emphasis is on my Ranged units with my Melee stuff being used to hold the enemy in place, Malleus Gaming on Youtube has covered some nice formations if you're interested.

I'm sure there are other very viable ways to do empire but this is how I like it.

I like to play with the characters strengths in mind and while I do agree that gunfire and artillery are the empires biggest strength I just don't think that works with Karl, his greatsword and knights buffs seem like the way to go with him.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by DrMeepy:

Its a good idea to build your army to fight a campaign against a specific faction. Beast wizards are terrible regardless, light/life/fire/metal would all be better choices. With Franz you should probably get a light and life mage, maybe 4 engineers, and like ten steam tanks. Probably will auto win fights with that even if you go afk

I don't get why people keep saying empire beast wizards are bad, flock of doom does great damage especially in sieges, decent buffs for karl in battle, and a gryphon mount along with 2 manticore and 2 flock of great hawks summons make him a serious danger.

[DrMeepy]

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

Originally posted by DrMeepy:

Its a good idea to build your army to fight a campaign against a specific faction. Beast wizards are terrible regardless, light/life/fire/metal would all be better choices. With Franz you should probably get a light and life mage, maybe 4 engineers, and like ten steam tanks. Probably will auto win fights with that even if you go afk

I don't get why people keep saying empire beast wizards are bad, flock of doom does great damage especially in sieges, decent buffs for karl in battle, and a gryphon mount along with 2 manticore and 2 flock of great hawks summons make him a serious danger.

Itz cause flying units don't swoop anymore, winds of magic is expensive for everybody, except Elspeth has that neat mechanic where she can get extra reserve per garden of morr.

Ultimately as the game progresses franz' natural enemy will have full stacks of t4 units with armor and magic resist, lower entity count numbers, and the accompanying lords are absolute beasts that can take out manticores and hawks easily. Even a level 1 dark wizard with spirit leech can be better in that situation, because flock of doom is only good for high entity stuff, low tier stuff, like sieges as you said. Being able to use a light wizard to stun Archaeon in place while 10 missile units focus fire it is still most cost effective use of magic in game.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by DrMeepy:

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

I don't get why people keep saying empire beast wizards are bad, flock of doom does great damage especially in sieges, decent buffs for karl in battle, and a gryphon mount along with 2 manticore and 2 flock of great hawks summons make him a serious danger.

Itz cause flying units don't swoop anymore, winds of magic is expensive for everybody, except Elspeth has that neat mechanic where she can get extra reserve per garden of morr.

Ultimately as the game progresses franz' natural enemy will have full stacks of t4 units with armor and magic resist, lower entity count numbers, and the accompanying lords are absolute beasts that can take out manticores and hawks easily. Even a level 1 dark wizard with spirit leech can be better in that situation, because flock of doom is only good for high entity stuff, low tier stuff, like sieges as you said. Being able to use a light wizard to stun Archaeon in place while 10 missile units focus fire it is still most cost effective use of magic in game.

I suppose, I just really enjoyed the use I got out of my beast wizard so far, I suppose Ill switch him out for a jade wizard soon.

[DrMeepy]

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

Originally posted by DrMeepy:

Itz cause flying units don't swoop anymore, winds of magic is expensive for everybody, except Elspeth has that neat mechanic where she can get extra reserve per garden of morr.

Ultimately as the game progresses franz' natural enemy will have full stacks of t4 units with armor and magic resist, lower entity count numbers, and the accompanying lords are absolute beasts that can take out manticores and hawks easily. Even a level 1 dark wizard with spirit leech can be better in that situation, because flock of doom is only good for high entity stuff, low tier stuff, like sieges as you said. Being able to use a light wizard to stun Archaeon in place while 10 missile units focus fire it is still most cost effective use of magic in game.

I suppose, I just really enjoyed the use I got out of my beast wizard so far, I suppose Ill switch him out for a jade wizard soon.

It really just depends on what faction you are fighting, and..if you are having fun with the guy you should just keep using it. Its always possible to win if you just keep making "doomstacks" and "crapstacks", but is it any fun for us to play it?
In the current patch pistolliers with engineer heroes attached can turn into mobile auto snipers with crazy ammo/range and armor piercing damage to boot. Its both fun AND overpowered.

[SpeaksTooFast]

If starting as Karl I would want to build towards Reikssguard/Stubborn Bulls stack with a few captions, priests, wizards(1 life one something else) and one engineer or Ulrika for the movement buff.

I'm currently playing as Nuln and recently confederated him, in this case I threw him most of her base army and the state troop steam tanks as he can reduce their upkeep nicely.

TLDR: one of the best things about Empire ATM is that there are enough random factor to make any "optimal" build more situation dependent than anything truly optimal and that keeps it interesting.

[Googley Eye'd Bastard]

Originally posted by SpeaksTooFast:

If starting as Karl I would want to build towards Reikssguard/Stubborn Bulls stack with a few captions, priests, wizards(1 life one something else) and one engineer or Ulrika for the movement buff.

I'm currently playing as Nuln and recently confederated him, in this case I threw him most of her base army and the state troop steam tanks as he can reduce their upkeep nicely.

TLDR: one of the best things about Empire ATM is that there are enough random factor to make any "optimal" build more situation dependent than truly optimal and that keeps it interesting.

At the point I'm at I've already wiped out archeon and secured my northern front with malakai and I have a fairly lucrative cash flow so I'm looking to kit out my armies. Way I see it between the bulls and knights of the rose the rose they are the only two "staying power" cavalry for the empire. Bulls do have way higher AP but much less melee defense, I might grab a few but lean more heavily on the rose knights.

[SpeaksTooFast]

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

At the point I'm at I've already wiped out archeon and secured my northern front with malakai and I have a fairly lucrative cash flow so I'm looking to kit out my armies. Way I see it between the bulls and knights of the rose the rose they are the only two "staying power" cavalry for the empire. Bulls do have way higher AP but much less melee defense, I might grab a few but lean more heavily on the rose knights.

Staying power is nice but killing power makes battles go faster. Just how you want to play and where you want your damage to come from. Pinning enemies in place for a nice final transmutiation can be really satisfying but if you are relying on them to do the damage devastating flanker may be more impactful.

[Barry Cabbage]

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

I like to play with the characters strengths in mind and while I do agree that gunfire and artillery are the empires biggest strength I just don't think that works with Karl, his greatsword and knights buffs seem like the way to go with him.

I respect the hell out of that.

Just theorising here so I cannot confirm the viability of this, compounded by the fact that I'm very, VERY, bad at charge Cav so tend to avoid it.

6x Halberds, 3x Greatsword, 4x Handgunner/Ironside, Battle Priest, Karl, Wizard 4xCavalry of your preference

The general Idea would be to Form a loose formation of the Halberds with the Greatswords behind them lined up with the gap. once the enemy makes contact with the Halberds push the Greatswords between the gap and into the side of the enemy units.

Hand gunners would be Anti-Air / Anti-Hero with Cav doing the standard Cav stuff.
You could probably switch out the Hand gunners for Archers or Crossbowmen so they can fire over the formation.

You may also consider replacing Handgunners or Cavalry with Steam Tanks or Landships.

Truthfully the best way I've found when it comes to creating an army comp is to align it with a formation/tactic.

[A.Pot]

I personally like to give all the Legendary Lords armies based either on what they buff or their lore. So for Karl Franz, he has some skills which affects the Empire's assorted Knight units and Greatswords.

During an Elspeth campaign, I gave Franz an army of Reiksguard which he can buff with anti large and the by default anti infantry Knights of Morr. They just absolutely wrecked both in auto resolve and in manual battles everything they were thrown against.

[Gorgeous_Joe]

Originally posted by Googley Eye'd Bastard:

Currently in a mid-late Karl Franz Campaign, helping malakai wipe out archeon and I can't help but feel I'm building karl's army wrong.

He's got a bunch of greatswords, couple halberds, 3 ironsides, a landship and 2 of each hallblasters and helstorms along with an enginer, priest, and beasts wizard hero's.

With his unique skills with greatswords and horse cavalry I can't help but feel like I should be focusing on a group of greatswords with some of the various calv options.

If I'm going with this what would you guys suggestion filling the army with? I known I'm probably going to keep a couple rieksguard at least for anti large.

--------
There really isn't any wrong way to build him an army as a stack of greatswords or reiksguard would never be considered a doom stack. He obviously gives buffs to both of them so building an army with them in it makes sense.
Usually having a jade wizard along with whichever variety of heroes you choose is optimal for healing and buffing from the other heroes archetypes.
Depending on how much micro you do or do not like really steers your build, ultimately though the empires strength is in its artillery/firearms so even if you went with six carroburg, six artillery pieces and four reiksguard with the other slots taken up by Franz and heroes that gives you a powerful army with little micro. If you want more micro then swap out carroburg for gunners.
Technically you don't need anti-large troops like halbadiers because that's what your guns are for, a luminarch will take down a giant very quickly as will gunners and you are better off with reiksguard for their manoeuvrability.
Are you going to be using the army for both sieges and open ground battles? If so then you will have to mix and match accordingly depending on your abilities. Building armies, is often more about your ability than what someone recommends, outside of dwarfen flying doombarge doomstacks of course.
Your best bet is to simply play thematically, that way it gives you variety in battles and you learn what works and what doesn't in different situations. So, build Franz with carroburgs and reiksguard and then build a tank army with an engineer lord etc.

[bischof11]

Elector counts units He makes them so insane cheap and powerful