Thoughts on the new Age of Reckoning system?

[These stairs go up!]

Personally I dont like it very much. 10 turns seems awfully fast and the amount of grudges needed can get completely ridiculous. Im aware of the bugs but regardless it just doesnt seem very well balanced.

Dwarfs are not really a bum rush kind of faction. So its kinda difficulty to get rolling early game. I feel like it would benefit from being longer, or maybe just having an actual end goal instead of starting over again so frequently.

I get that that downsides arent very bad at all but eh, kinda feels like nobody play-tested it to me and if they did they didnt do very extensive testing.

IDK. I want to hear other peoples thoughts on it.

[Immortalis]

Honestly, I find the concept to be an incredibly good one both in theory and in its implementation. The idea that the entire race is thrown in rapturous enthusiasm as grudges are settled and ancient holds reclaimed fits very nicely.

Right now I have two main issues with the system.

First of all I’d like the default state to remain neutral, something like, you’re not reclaiming but at least we’re holding on to our own territory. And from there go down and get maluses if dwarven settlements are lost, armies wiped out etc; at the same time go up and get bonuses when you do the reclaiming and settling of grudges.

The second issue is with the point scaling since after a couple of ages you get to a point where you need 40 or 50 thousands to complete them. And the more factions you discover the harder it is to keep up.
Sure, there are big targets running around (I saw a Skarsnik that was worth almost 6k on his own, and taking Drakenhof and killing the armies around it in the process was a full 10k) but eventually you’ll reach a plateau.

I saw there’s already a mod that changes how grudges are capped and it’s a much better experience since you’re not always forced to rush forward. If anything, it’s a bit too lenient in my opinion, since you only need to fight a couple of battles to reach the max bonus.

I don’t know, I’d like a compromise

[These stairs go up!]

Originally posted by Immortalis:

Honestly, I find the concept to be an incredibly good one both in theory and in its implementation. The idea that the entire race is thrown in rapturous enthusiasm as grudges are settled and ancient holds reclaimed fits very nicely.

Right now I have two main issues with the system.

First of all I’d like the default state to remain neutral, something like, you’re not reclaiming but at least we’re holding on to our own territory. And from there go down and get maluses if dwarven settlements are lost, armies wiped out etc; at the same time go up and get bonuses when you do the reclaiming and settling of grudges.

The second issue is with the point scaling since after a couple of ages you get to a point where you need 40 or 50 thousands to complete them. And the more factions you discover the harder it is to keep up.
Sure, there are big targets running around (I saw a Skarsnik that was worth almost 6k on his own, and taking Drakenhof and killing the armies around it in the process was a full 10k) but eventually you’ll reach a plateau.

I saw there’s already a mod that changes how grudges are capped and it’s a much better experience since you’re not always forced to rush forward. If anything, it’s a bit too lenient in my opinion, since you only need to fight a couple of battles to reach the max bonus.

I don’t know, I’d like a compromise

I like the Idea of starting neutral.

If you screw around too much you get punished. If you push and work hard you get rewarded.

I saw the mod and agree that its a bit too lenient. Im sure more will pop up as time goes on.

[OpalGotMyHeart]

personally i love it both mechanically and lorewise, it really gives the feel of rallying the dwarven forces to commit to paying off the grudges that have long been set by the many rival factions. It reminds me heavily of the story of the many attempts of belegar ironhammer to retake karak 8 peaks. On his first expedition he was unable to rally the support neccessary. The entirety of the dwarves believed him a fool to undertake the effort, and as a result he failed. On his second though he made some small headway, pushing through and killing off waves of greenskins to take the entrance, before having to abandon his front and return to the safe holds back home. However in doing this he proved it wasnt impossible, and many dwarven clans rallied to his call, seeing the retaking of the peaks both as a way to grow their family´s influence and as a worthy challenge for the dwarven warriors, as the grudge of 8 peaks was among the most ancient. On this second he similarly failed, but he was able to penetrate even further into the peaks, and his determination and will caught the eye of both thorek ironbrow and thorgrim grudgebearer, who saw in this a true chance to finally push back both the skaven and greenskins, so through their rallying cries and investment, the 3rd assault of 8 peaks was a success, allowing the top most layers to finally be held by dwarven rule and a safe foothold to be established within the hold.

This is how i feel whenever im making massive campaigns to important targets, my first few efforts garnering limited success, but with each success brokering more support and as a result allowing me to making more grand strides in my efforts, which leads to more dwarves taking notice and supporting me until I am able to prove that my efforts were worthy of the support of my kin, and as such I strike a legendary grudge from the great book, for the honour of the dawwi!

I also enjoy how it turns dwarves into an actually intimidating enemy, as they no longer sit idly in their homes waiting for be murdered, they actually fight for their ancestral homes and attack their hated enemies to settle the score once and for all. Also, the meta progress objectives in the legendary grudges make for a fun long term objective to aim for, allowing for some fun alternative campaign paths.

[Psychomeld]

I honestly would keep it as it is except maybe make it like the greenskins waagh where if you did good on the past aor then it starts higher up rather than at the beginning again. I also think there needs to be a number tweak with the grudges needed as time passes. Around turn 50 and needing an obscene amount of grudges just to get to max makes it clear it scales way too hard late into the game, whatever modifier they are using needs to be reviewed to be a flat value added rather than multiplicative.

[These stairs go up!]

Originally posted by NikiGotUrSpine:

personally i love it both mechanically and lorewise, it really gives the feel of rallying the dwarven forces to commit to paying off the grudges that have long been set by the many rival factions. It reminds me heavily of the story of the many attempts of belegar ironhammer to retake karak 8 peaks. On his first expedition he was unable to rally the support neccessary. The entirety of the dwarves believed him a fool to undertake the effort, and as a result he failed. On his second though he made some small headway, pushing through and killing off waves of greenskins to take the entrance, before having to abandon his front and return to the safe holds back home. However in doing this he proved it wasnt impossible, and many dwarven clans rallied to his call, seeing the retaking of the peaks both as a way to grow their family´s influence and as a worthy challenge for the dwarven warriors, as the grudge of 8 peaks was among the most ancient. On this second he similarly failed, but he was able to penetrate even further into the peaks, and his determination and will caught the eye of both thorek ironbrow and thorgrim grudgebearer, who saw in this a true chance to finally push back both the skaven and greenskins, so through their rallying cries and investment, the 3rd assault of 8 peaks was a success, allowing the top most layers to finally be held by dwarven rule and a safe foothold to be established within the hold.

This is how i feel whenever im making massive campaigns to important targets, my first few efforts garnering limited success, but with each success brokering more support and as a result allowing me to making more grand strides in my efforts, which leads to more dwarves taking notice and supporting me until I am able to prove that my efforts were worthy of the support of my kin, and as such I strike a legendary grudge from the great book, for the honour of the dawwi!

I also enjoy how it turns dwarves into an actually intimidating enemy, as they no longer sit idly in their homes waiting for be murdered, they actually fight for their ancestral homes and attack their hated enemies to settle the score once and for all. Also, the meta progress objectives in the legendary grudges make for a fun long term objective to aim for, allowing for some fun alternative campaign paths.

See lorewise its fun.

But for me personally it doesnt translate well to gameplay because of the obnoxious amount of grudges needed late game and the scarcity of the grudges and shortness of the timer early game.

I like being encouraged to go do things instead of turtling in my mountain, but it needs to feel like I can actually accomplish it even if its a long shot. Right now you reach a point where you just kinda say, "welp I need sixty thousand grudges and I cant possibly get that in 10 turns so screw it" and just ignore the system.

Originally posted by Psychomeld:

I honestly would keep it as it is except maybe make it like the greenskins waagh where if you did good on the past aor then it starts higher up rather than at the beginning again. I also think there needs to be a number tweak with the grudges needed as time passes. Around turn 50 and needing an obscene amount of grudges just to get to max makes it clear it scales way too hard late into the game, whatever modifier they are using needs to be reviewed to be a flat value added rather than multiplicative.

Yeah having some sort of system to not start from 0 would be a nice change.
Agree whole heartedly that late game grudges are obnoxiously high.

[Bersekr]

I don't think it's particularly well implemented atm. The 10 turns is not long enough, it's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sprint. the grudge thershold goes up astronomically way too fast. I struggled getting up grudges on people - I guess I could declare war on everyone and then let them raid me etc. but I'd rather not.

Honestly I think in concept the system is amazing. Just make it a thing you toggle, you let the grudges build up and fester over the game and then when you've had enough you declare an Age of Reckoning and charge out to snipe all the factions and lords that wronged you like a big grudge harvest.

Or smth like that. Fudging with the numbers could also help and it's simpler I guess. Smth needs to be changed I feel, the system as it stands is not fun

[Celery]

It just needs tuning in my opinion.

People have this bizarre expectation of maxing it out every 10 turns when that shouldn't be happening. I think that it needs-

- Increased duration (say 15 turns or so)
- Scaling on distance from territories for grudge value (so closer factions give more grudges than those across the map)

[Gseckz]

It sucks I conquered all of Norsca and i got half a bar, unless the AI is winning and getting your settlements im getting 70 per city or army. Dwarves used to be just turtle and tech now it forces you to go fight chaos dwarves way in the east or orcs south.

When your losing heavily and you win its +2k suddenly.. I hate it, it forces you to cheese the game by force losing territories so you can grow fast.

[SamogitianPaladin]

I agree with others - due to scaling effect, AOR sucks, and the whole idea forces dawi to attack. That does not not correlate with lore of dawi. They are dwarves, not good damn orcs. Waiting for patch.

[bmnoble981]

Playing Thorgrim on Hard campaign and battle difficulty:

One thing I noticed when I confederated a lot of the other Dawi legendary lords(just have Malakai and Ungrim to go), was their armies were full of the grudge settler units with few normal units recruited, other than Ungrim they all tanked their economies since they were not able to keep up with the mechanic very well, preventing them from expanding much Belegar in particular took his starting province and not much else.

Another thing to take into consideration is since the grudges build dynamically over the campaign based on the actions of each race, when I got to turn 150, among the hostile factions there were a lot of AI armies and settlements with 1 - 4 K of grudges accumulated, meanwhile I notice the Empire factions have a few dozen to a few hundred grudges accumulated(haven't got to try out the new underway feature, the Empire took Karak Kadrin and Zhufbar's province during their war with Vlad, got no intention of poking a fully established/united Empire)

That said in that 150 turns I only ever triggered the max number of grudges twice, even when I did trigger it a free army at my capital for 10 turns, ended up being useless later in the game, since it never made it to the front lines.

I pretty much only use the grudge settler units as emergency garrisons, since they only cost upkeep they work better than ROR in someways, other than that their upkeep penalty makes using them in place of regular troops a waste of time IMO.

[FizzMan]

Originally posted by Gseckz:

It sucks I conquered all of Norsca and i got half a bar, unless the AI is winning and getting your settlements im getting 70 per city or army. Dwarves used to be just turtle and tech now it forces you to go fight chaos dwarves way in the east or orcs south.

When your losing heavily and you win its +2k suddenly.. I hate it, it forces you to cheese the game by force losing territories so you can grow fast.

Maybe because Norsca (outside a few starting factions and settlements) doesn't include Key Dwarf Settlements, involve any legendary grudges and generally don't matter that much to the dwarves.

It's almost like Skaven, Chaos Dwarves and Greenskins upset the Dwarves more then Norscans.

Turtleing and tech was superior to what they have now?

Sitting around, doing nothing and abusing broken systems?

If you want to play compelling 4x strategy games then try out: Hereos of Might and Magic 3, Europa Universalis 4, Master of Magic, Emperor of the Fading Suns, Crusader Kings 3, Knights of Honor 2, etc.

And you don't have to lose on purpose, every legendary grudge gives you 2,500 settled grudges.

As the game progresses each faction also generates more and more grudges for you to settle, some say it can get into the 10k range.

And getting comeback rewards when you're down on your luck is a bad thing?

[Bersekr]

Originally posted by FizzMan:

Originally posted by Gseckz:

It sucks I conquered all of Norsca and i got half a bar, unless the AI is winning and getting your settlements im getting 70 per city or army. Dwarves used to be just turtle and tech now it forces you to go fight chaos dwarves way in the east or orcs south.

When your losing heavily and you win its +2k suddenly.. I hate it, it forces you to cheese the game by force losing territories so you can grow fast.

Maybe because Norsca (outside a few starting factions and settlements) doesn't include Key Dwarf Settlements, involve any legendary grudges and generally don't matter that much to the dwarves.

It's almost like Skaven, Chaos Dwarves and Greenskins upset the Dwarves more then Norscans.

Turtleing and tech was superior to what they have now?

Sitting around, doing nothing and abusing broken systems?

If you want to play compelling 4x strategy games then try out: Hereos of Might and Magic 3, Europa Universalis 4, Master of Magic, Emperor of the Fading Suns, Crusader Kings 3, Knights of Honor 2, etc.

And you don't have to lose on purpose, every legendary grudge gives you 2,500 settled grudges.

As the game progresses each faction also generates more and more grudges for you to settle, some say it can get into the 10k range.

And getting comeback rewards when you're down on your luck is a bad thing?

You clearly didn't play Malakai since one of the Legendary Grudges is all about you taking Norscan settlements

[Shield]

i think having faction negatives for not participating in a system that's only solved by aggression should be reconsidered, and they should consider giving the player faction greater and greater benefits for continuing to chain ages of reckoning and it stops when you "cash out" and delay the next one. or if you fail to meet the goal after you opt in you walk away with fewer rewards

[Prexxus]

They need to drastically lower the requirements. At the point I'm at I need 60 000 grudges for top tier. I have 6 full stacks dominating all over but no one is worth anything. It's literally impossible for me to obtain. I have to hope for 2nd worst tier most of the time.

Earlier in my game I was able to hit 5 once and 4-3 a few times.

[Gseckz]

Originally posted by Bersekr:

Originally posted by FizzMan:

Maybe because Norsca (outside a few starting factions and settlements) doesn't include Key Dwarf Settlements, involve any legendary grudges and generally don't matter that much to the dwarves.

It's almost like Skaven, Chaos Dwarves and Greenskins upset the Dwarves more then Norscans.

Turtleing and tech was superior to what they have now?

Sitting around, doing nothing and abusing broken systems?

If you want to play compelling 4x strategy games then try out: Hereos of Might and Magic 3, Europa Universalis 4, Master of Magic, Emperor of the Fading Suns, Crusader Kings 3, Knights of Honor 2, etc.

And you don't have to lose on purpose, every legendary grudge gives you 2,500 settled grudges.

As the game progresses each faction also generates more and more grudges for you to settle, some say it can get into the 10k range.

And getting comeback rewards when you're down on your luck is a bad thing?

You clearly didn't play Malakai since one of the Legendary Grudges is all about you taking Norscan settlements

Adventures/grudges and the AI declares war on you on Norsca. skaven gets owned by Kostatyn early in the game

Originally posted by FizzMan:

Originally posted by Gseckz:

It sucks I conquered all of Norsca and i got half a bar, unless the AI is winning and getting your settlements im getting 70 per city or army. Dwarves used to be just turtle and tech now it forces you to go fight chaos dwarves way in the east or orcs south.

When your losing heavily and you win its +2k suddenly.. I hate it, it forces you to cheese the game by force losing territories so you can grow fast.

Maybe because Norsca (outside a few starting factions and settlements) doesn't include Key Dwarf Settlements, involve any legendary grudges and generally don't matter that much to the dwarves.

It's almost like Skaven, Chaos Dwarves and Greenskins upset the Dwarves more then Norscans.

Turtleing and tech was superior to what they have now?

Sitting around, doing nothing and abusing broken systems?

If you want to play compelling 4x strategy games then try out: Hereos of Might and Magic 3, Europa Universalis 4, Master of Magic, Emperor of the Fading Suns, Crusader Kings 3, Knights of Honor 2, etc.

And you don't have to lose on purpose, every legendary grudge gives you 2,500 settled grudges.

As the game progresses each faction also generates more and more grudges for you to settle, some say it can get into the 10k range.

And getting comeback rewards when you're down on your luck is a bad thing?

The first Adventures and legendary grudges are on Norsca and the AI declares wars on you. Instead of typing all that out your ass why don't you get the dlc first?